Adding manifold help needed
We bought the house which had UFH and its about 20 years. But funny the previous owner they didnt try to turn it on so when we moved in, found out so many missing parts to make it works. Got contractor came in and installed parts but funny he disappeared, no answer from us when we calls or messages
Here is some pictures with the system. Zone 4 seems to big to run.
Question is how can we fix it, can we add more manifold to split zone 4 or something to make it works better?
Right now the outside temparature is 30 and the heat only up to 68 which is highest. We are in MN and soon we will down to -30F or more
TIA
Comments
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FYI you only have one zone, and the person who installed this did a poor job (piped wrong) but it should still work to some extent. What seems to be the actual problem? Also where in MN are you located?
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what is the square footage of the home?
Is it 3 bedrooms and a great room?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream-1 -
@Hleight7, The circulator next to the boiler is pumping into the expansion tank. No good. Move the circulator to the return.
Someone's attempt at injection pumping, but wrong. It needs to be closely spaced Tee's here.
Closing the ball valve might help, but then you've got 2 circulators running in series. There's also an internal boiler circulator, so they might not all play nice together that way. How far away is the radiant manifold that an injection loop is needed?
I also don't see an external Pressure Reducing Valve, and it looks like the port for the internal Pressure Reducing Valve is capped. So where do you add water to the boiler?
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And, Navien. Aside from that "Mrs. Lincoln" you need a down-pipe on your TPR valve.
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You have one two many circulators :)
Your boiler, a combi has one circ inside. These pics show an external boiler circ.
It looks like the factory P/S header pipe under the boiler, that stainless steel pipe. If so this piping is what works, just the a single pump version off that header. This pic happens to be a multi zoned pump system.
Or a U shaped version, lower pic
This shows closely spaced tees where you have a header pipe
A fairly easy piping fix.
A discharge pipe to the floor from this relief valve, please. as @psb75 mentioned
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
The living total is 3900 sf. 6 bedrooms at 2 level. Somehow we think its not enough to cover whole house
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Yeah and for that board he charged us over $$$$$ then silence when we call or messages for a part he hasnt done yet.
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We are in Floodwood which not easy to get someone come to look at it and give a quote. The ad and community keep showing that guy is good one to do servive and we end up with this situation
Soon it will be colder and house will be down to 50 or 60 to live
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Close this one?
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Yes and you can eliminate one of the pumps there as well. The only pump you need there is the one that runs when any zones call for heat. The boiler circ is built into the boiler.
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Ok i closed that one and turn the pump to Lo which connected to expansion tank. 1 hour is nothing but at least temperature didnt drop.
I will wait and see if can gain any degree or not
Thank you
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Still dont see how to addd water pressure to the system. if the system has not operated for many years, there is air in the tubes most likely. You will need to get that air out and and to do that you need to add water pressure. Up to about 20 - 24 PSI water pressure to purge air out. then put boiler pressure back to 12 PSI after all the air is out. Your professional needsa to figure that out for you.
Give me his phone number and I will call him and ask him if he intends to solve your problem or refund your money for not fixing the problem? then you can call someone else to fix it.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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He is not answer any calls or messages from us even though he said thinking about adding manifold. We are waiting, calling but still No respond after all. We have to call someone else and they gave us a quote to add 1 more zone, run some pipes and maybe add some more stuff which cost us about $6,000 more
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What flow are you now seeing on the indicators on each zone on the manifold? What is the supply and return temp and fire rate your modcon is reporting?
If you can't find somebody to do a proper purge, looks like you have a proper air separator, that should remove any air slowly over time (slowly like couple of weeks of operation).
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That is why you should post his number here or PM me the number. When he gets a call from someone else on your behalf, or several from all over the country, (the internet is funny that way) you will get action. If you paid $$$ for the heater repair already, and it does not work, you should get a refund. Or the contractor should make the heat work!!!! That is the way it should be. Otherwise that person should be charged with fraud!!! That is what the courts are for. No one that is that busy has time to show up in court for this nonsense.
If my phone call to them does not get results, then file a claim in small claims court… that will get his attention.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Here is his information.
Thank you for your help
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I closed that valve and somehow it only warm loop 1 and 2
3, 4 are cold and tempeture down to 61
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What are these gauges reading when the system runs?
Your emitters could be air bound.
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I just got off the phone with the Warwas heating and cooling owner. It appears that you purchased a new Nevian Combi and it is operating as expected. Some of the space heating loops are operating. However, the radiant floor heating loops are not properly installed. From what I have heard from the installing contractor, the previous owner of your home installed the tubing himself. He used a non-oxygen barrier ¾” PEX tubing, and there is no way to determine where each loop goes or how long each loop is. As a result of all his efforts the contractor has determined that there is no way to make that floor heat operational. He sounds knowledgeable and I believe him at this point.
If I were in your situation, purchasing a home that did not have an operational heating system I would check with a real estate lawyer to see what your options are regarding this situation. I don't really see how the contractor (or any contractor) could do anything to make that tubing operational for you.
Second, now that you own a home without an operational heating system the easiest way to make that new boiler heat your home is to install 2 zones of Copper tube Alum fin baseboard in that home. The heater is large enough to heat your home if you have the proper heat emitters. This would mean abandoning the floor heat system completely. I hope this helps you to understand what you have gotten yourself into.
Good Luck in getting your home properly heated.
Mr. Ed
PS. I will be in contact with Warwas with more details as to how you can get the heater operational in the next few days. He really wants to help however the work performed to date is completed and you have working domestic hot water and some working central heat. But you need a heating system that will accept all the heat the boiler can deliver. it appears that you currently do not have that.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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If you do end up adding supplemental heat, consider panel radiators. The behave more like a radiant system, and generally use lower water temperature.
With a condensing boiler you want to avoid high temperature fin tube type. Although there are high output versions.
Panel radiators are radiant and some convection heat transfer.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
@Hleight7 said: "We bought the house which had UFH and its about 20 years. But funny the previous owner they didnt try to turn it on so when we moved in, found out so many missing parts to make it works.Got contractor came in and installed parts but funny he disappeared"
What @Hleight7 really means: We bought the house which had UFH installed by the previous owner DIY and it was never operated properly and its about 20 years. But funny the previous owner they didn't try to turn it on so when we moved in, found out so many missing parts, like the actual heater was a Gas Automatic standing pilot water heater to make it works. Got contractor came in and installed parts (abandoned the water heater and installed a Nevian Combi Boiler. After the previous owner was asked by Warwas the contractor how the tubing was designed, the contractor determined that the radiant floor tubing was inoperable. So he suggested more work to get the heat to operate and he is waiting for approval of the additional work and how it will be paid for. but funny he disappeared.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Note to any contractors tuned in.
On unknown or DIY systems always get a signed disclosure indicating what the potential outcomes are, or are not.
If a competent load calc and design ( pex manufacturer, wholesaler, rep, design software print-out) cannot be provided, assume the worse.
This is a classic case of you don't know until you go.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
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If we install that panel radiator. Could you tell how much for 4000 sq ft?
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I sent you a private message.
Panel radiators will be a better system however it will me more expensive than baseboard.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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do you have areas that don’t heat at all? Or areas that will not keep up with the thermostat but get some heat.
Ideally a room by room heat load calculation would indicate what every room requires
either add a radiator for the entire load, or some smaller ones to “help” the radiant
Either you or a competent designer needs to do the calculations.
you have seen the results of not doing a proper design.Since you have a new boiler I would stick with a hydronic solution
It may be time to think about abandoning the radiant and installing a new radiator system
Boots on the ground would be helpful to see how feasible that is
Those 3/4” tube systems are not often a good match for residential systems. Wide spacing and long loop lengths are not ideal
It sounds a bit like one if the online DIY radiant systems
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0
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