Commissioning new Peerless 63-06

dandub1960 · November 18

So my old Burham is gone now. In its place is the new Peerless 63-06. One size bigger than i wanted but still three sizes smaller than nameplate on the Burnham. Downfired or no the installer was pretty insistent. May have also had something to do with the 06 being a split block (350 lbs per piece) vs the 05 fully assembled block (600 lbs). Anyway it's here with NBP precisely as per Peerless (single 3 inch riser in this case). Also worth noting two pipe system with gravity return, that part unchanged, though we do have a new return manifold (3 steam drips and one combined condensate return) piped into the Hartford loop.

Before I retired the 5B I did find my old water manometer stuff and tracked a nice long-ish call for heat on her in downfired state. Went through a nice gradual cycle starting with 2 1/2 inch WC at steaming to about 8 inches WC at end of the call for heat (about 30 minutes) and then into about 3 inches of vacuum. All the while the sight glass level never went beyond a 3/4 inch drop across the cycle with a slight +- 1/4 inch bounce.

So going in we did expect the lower water content of the smaller boiler would likely magnifying water level variations, but 3/4 inch to 1 inch multiplied by the relative water surface areas (2x) didn't seem too bad. I figured we could always add an external accumulater tank if need be.

So after a clean-out with washing soda, a couple flushes and then refill with full dose of 8 way, and a bunch of skimming we've been operating since Saturday. Right off the bat I noticed the new boiler seemed to build more pressure and pretty fast at that. The old Burnham never seemed to even reach the pressuretrol cut-out of 1.5 psi (42 inch WC). The new boiler seems to reach that level in less than a minute after starting to steam, almost like it was backed in. In addition the water level bounces a lot and begins to dive for the bottom of the sight glass (-6 inches) about that time or right after burner cutout (vacuum issue?). So we kind of bounce between cutting out on pressure or low water now. Also the new Cyclegard probe LWCO seems a bit over-tolerant of levels at the base of the sight glass, so we have the old float LWCO piped in as secondary control there.

So is there a question you're probably wondering by now. Well first off, does this water level problem sound like something that might improve with more skimming? I've skimmed a couple gallons the last two mornings. Not a lot of crud, maybe some flecks of pipe dope? A little murk. No real oil stain. For the life of me I can't imagine where all this water is going to, and yet it eventually all comes back, well after the heat call.

I'd appreciate any guidance on troubleshooting. With all this burner cycling the radiator heat up is pretty slow and uneven (some seem air bound that used to work fine, others still heating fine even on different mains). Can start up of a new boiler lead to plugging of inlet valves or traps I'm wondering? Maybe blowing pipe dope through the system?

ethicalpaul · November 18

One size bigger than i wanted but still three sizes smaller than nameplate on the Burnham. Downfired or no the installer was pretty insistent.

Oh, was he paying for it? In my house, that's the only way a contractor could insist on something incorrectly chosen.

I figured we could always add an external accumulater tank if need be.

Please don't.

So after a clean-out with washing soda, a couple flushes and then refill with full dose of 8 way

8-way is very good, but their instructions want you to use too much. Cut it by 1/4 and see how that does. And don't bother with 8-way until all the oil is out.

The old Burnham never seemed to even reach the pressuretrol cut-out of 1.5 psi (42 inch WC). The new boiler seems to reach that level in less than a minute after starting to steam

Oversized, as you are aware! But if it's cutting out due to low water condition, you are surging.

Also the new Cyclegard probe LWCO seems a bit over-tolerant of levels at the base of the sight glass, so we have the old float LWCO piped in as secondary control there.

That is like moving backward.

So is there a question you're probably wondering by now. Well first off, does this water level problem sound like something that might improve with more skimming?

Yes

For the life of me I can't imagine where all this water is going to, and yet it eventually all comes back, well after the heat call.

It's going up to the header and probably the main(s). Edit: Or see below, it could be getting pushed out the back. (I just found out it sounds like you have a two-pipe system)

Can start up of a new boiler lead to plugging of inlet valves or traps I'm wondering? Maybe blowing pipe dope through the system?

Since it seems like that you are surging, that is possible. Any garbage in the boiler water is getting puked into your pipes. But wait, based on what I just read at the end of your post, this is a two pipe system I take it? If it's a two-pipe system and you are seeing high pressure, it could be pushing water out the back of the boiler, depending on how it's piped.

dandub1960 · November 18

Thanks Paul. I'm curious about your aversion to an accumulater tank? What I'd envision was a tank centered on the boiler waterline with boiler pressure on top and connection to the hartford loop on the bottom, so purely passive. Is this problematic? I figured it would allow me to match the water surface area of the old boiler for what that's worth. If the steaming and condensate return rates were similar maybe we'd get back to 3/4 inch water level change?

And yes this is two pipe, so I'll have been eyeing my return piping and steam drips, for where this blasted boiler charge could be hiding out. The good news (I think) is that the volume of wet return is pretty limited and just in the boiler room (above floor). I'm assuming if boiler pressure stays below 1.5 psi cut-out I should have 42 inches above the water level before any flooding of my dry returns? The steam drips have some lower lateral sections but still 16 to 22 inches above the boiler waterline, so still okay?

EBEBRATT-Ed · November 19

@ethicalpaul

It is oversized but smaller than the old Burnham which was really oversized.

@dandub1960

I think more skimming is required until it calms down. You want to skim as slow as possible with the burners off..

If your steam drips are connected together above the water line?? That is NG. Pictures are better. As far as the accumulator tank I doubt you need that but let's get this steaming with a steadier water line first.

Pictures of the piping is better.

mattmia2 · November 19

if it is a vapor system, are the vapor specialties still in place in the boiler room?

mattmia2 · November 19

and @EBEBRATT-Ed 's question about what you mean by "combined condensate return"

did the old boiler have check valves in the return? does the new one? depending on what type of vapor system it is those could be important

mattmia2 · November 19

where was the old water line compared to the new water line?

if it is building pressure before the emitters get hot the air isn't getting out

STEAM DOCTOR · November 19

I would have to disagree with Paul, just a bit. I find it boiling with 8-way, and then repeated draining, greatly reduces the amount of time necessary for skimming. My knowledge of chemistry is zero, and I don't know if these results make sense in the world of physics. I just know from my personal experience, on numerous boilers

mattmia2 · November 19

detergent makes some of the oil mix with the water, it has a polar end that sticks to the water and a nonpolar end that sticks to the oil so it lets some of the oil drain out with the water.

BobC · November 19

You may have to much 8 wqy left in the boiler. If you never drained the boiler after putting the 8 way in, drain and refill it a couple of times. With the water set to the right level fire it up and see if anything changed.

You can add a little 8 way (couple OZ) to keep the boiler water around 9, that should keep corrosion down.

If it's a 2 pipe system you may want to dial the cut out pressure down to below 1 PSI and the cut in to 4-6 OZ.

Bob

AdmiralYoda · November 19

In my non-professional experience with my boiler and using cheapo pH strips… 1/2oz to 1oz of 8-way per gallon of water capacity seems to be ideal. More than 1oz per gallon tends to make my pH too high (>11) and 1/2oz per gallon tends to be a bit weak pH at 8.5-9.0.

I usually use 8oz when I flush out my boiler. It holds about 10-11 gallons of water. pH is usually around 10-ish. My boiler manual says a pH between 7.5-11 is ideal.

One of these days I'll get a pH meter to know where I'm really at.

dandub1960 · November 19

Well guys, it seems a frickin' miracle has occurred here overnight. I was awakened in the early hours today to some of the more reassuring sounds my system has made over the years and the sense (from under the covers) that a decent amount of heat was coming from my bedroom radiator. I came downstairs to comfortable warmth along the way. And after setting the (electric) tea kettle to boil I headed to the basement boiler room to find my recalcintrant wee beasty sitting quietly at completion of the call for heat with the sight glass level precisely at my Sharpie mark of NWL. Mind you an inch below where I left it but a clear sign from the boiler deities.

I climbed back upstairs to check my problematic living room baseboards. Strains of The Hallelujah Chorus echoing in my head as all five checked out toasty warm from end to end, including #4 (the long one) that had simply coughed a few times when I opened the steam trap at its end during a heat call the day before, and pulled out the trap element, fully expecting or maybe just hoping steam would come rushing to the opening? Maybe? Sorry, cough, gurgle, gurgle ... looking for something here?

After a cup of coffee and a little breakfast the tstat was calling for heat so I went downstairs to witness the miracle it action. The boiler temp came up nicely, with pressure building to about 8 inches WC at start of steaming. It climbed a bit above 16 inches in the early mid cycle, then fell back to 10 to 12-ish as cold condensate began to return to the boiler. Best of all, the sight glass level remained firmly in the +1 to +1.5 inch area the entire time, until the CycleGard threw in it's random "intermittent level test" sending us into vacuum for a brief minute. Once steaming again level came right back to +1. Like I said, a freakin' meer-kle.

Okay, so before we call the Vatican for insights on how my demon-possessed new boiler, regularly spewing it's charge from both ends days before, had suddenly become a docile and a well-behaved heating appliance, I should fess up to two changes I made last night, before settling into the couch with the Missus, for reruns of Uhtred, son of Uhtred, season 2. The first was to move the old Hoffmann 75 sitting atop my condensate system doing nothing but helping to tune the hiss of escaping air, over to steam tail #2, where it might actually do some good. Secondly, after contemplating Paul's admonishment to not worry about adding 8-way until all the oil was cleaned out, it occurred to me that I still had a partial quart of Hercules Boiler Cleaner, which i had used with the old Burham when it sounded a bit too rumbly. So I quickly perused the instructions: "Removes oil, scale, sludge" hmmm well not a lot of scale or sludge yet I assume, "emulsifies oil and grease", that sounds good, "helps stop priming, foaming, and surging", okay I am in. I grabbed my channel locks to open the pipe-bombed shaped chem add port my boiler guy had provided, added a precisely metered 2 1/2 to 3 glugs of the fluorescent green elixir straight into the port, and closed her up. Off to Uhtred.

The rest is, as they say, for the history books. Shout it from the rooftops, "This **** really works! All hail Hercules Boiler Cleaner!"

mattmia2 · November 19

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1873104#Comment_1873104

the test strips are at least as accurate if not more accurate than a meter that is usually trying to measure conductivity.

ethicalpaul · November 19

Agreed and you can get them in appropriate scales such as 7-14 pH for better accuracy

https://www.amazon.com/7-0-14-0-indicator-strips-100-box/dp/B001TQOOR4

Commissioning new Peerless 63-06

Comments

Categories