Cross over heat transfer
I have a cast iron boiler serving three zones of radiant floor heating loops. The boiler has a feed pump and each zone also has a circulator pump. Two loops are downstairs (main living space) and one in upstairs master bedroom.
The problem: when I run the upstairs zone to a comfortable temp, the system backs up flow into one of the downstairs zones causing severe over heating.
Each zone has a temp mix valve, but at 115°F and unchecked flow thru the non-active loop, it can get 75° in the family room... very uncomfortable.
Any thoughts on a solution?
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Check valves would stop reverse flow on the pump feed side, but how do you stop flow coming from return side back into the mix valve and thru the pump in the correct flow direction?
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flow checks stop forward flow unless the circulator for that zone is running.
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a flow check valve is designed to prevent forward ghost flow in zones that are not on when a system is zoned by circulator. the pressure differential from the pump i that zone os more than the pressure differential in that zone from the pump in an adjacent zone. unless your system is piped wrong and the zones aren't reasonably isolated.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Bell-Gossett-107037-1-NPT-Bronze-HydroTrol-Flow-Control-Valve
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Spring checks used in hydronics have a spring with a 1/2 psi "pop" opening. Weak enough for even a small circ to push open.
That is enough to prevent gravity or ghost flow induced by the buoyancy difference between hot and cold fluid. Which is the concept the the old gravity systems operated under.
Older style cast iron flo checks had a tapered weight inside that acted as the spring does,
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
So here's the system schematic (attch) the reason I was skeptical about the check valves was because I had the circulator out this summer and cleaned them all, so them being stuck open didn't seem to make sense. Also, to be honest, I hadn't heard of this ghost flow issue previously, but understand it now.
So, assuming that it isn't the check valves, is there anything else that could make sense? The last submission talks about other flow controls, but not sure where i would add them.
Would it be better to have zone valves instead of zone circulator pumps?
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Looks like an attempt at a primary secondary piping. As it looks your boiler pump is pushing flow through what should be secondaries. Looks like a cross over valve to mitigate the unwanted flow?
A very common mis-understanding of P/S
Follow the flow out of the boiler. Anytime the boiler pump is running it can push some flow through mix valve 1, 2 and 3 without those zone pumps running.
Additionally you can get reverse flow through inactive zones when another zone is running.
Here are the most common primary secondary piping arrangements. I think they were shooting for #2? Or a pipig where the boiler is the primary loop. But secondaries need to come off closely spaced tees, if the loop is complete.
This is a primary secondary with the boiler within the primary loop. Secondaries vis close spaced tees.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
A couple of questions.
Why are you regulating flow with ball valves? Why not use balancing valves made for that purpose? The flow thru 3/4" copper pipe should be about 4 GPM max. Ball valves must be 90%+ closed before regulating.
Why are some of the ball valves fully open on Zone 3 and partially open on one 1 &2?
Is it possible that Zone 3 mixing valve is installed backward (H to C or C to H)? Mixing valves are directional and there must be a temperature differential between the H & C inputs for it to function properly.
The EX-tank should have been installed on the supply instead of the return to the boiler. There is more efficient air removal in that position and pumps run better being on the output of the EX-tank.
Your diagram shows a good chance for ghost flows because of a lack of check valves on the returns from the heating loops.
I don't see a need of a gravity flow check in that position. I would put one in the volute of the boiler pump, tho.
Is it possible that both pumps run when Zone 2 is running?
I would close the ball valve going to the mixing valve on Zone 3 and run Zone 2 and see if Zone 3 still over heats. Tell us what happens.
"Check valves would stop reverse flow on the pump feed side, but how do you stop flow coming from return side back into the mix valve and thru the pump in the correct flow direction?" You put check valves on the return side, too.
"Is it better to zone with zone valve rather than circulators?" Zone valves give positive shut off where as circulators may not stop flow thru the volute if a pressure differential exists between the input and output of the volute.
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It's the air purger that should be on the boiler supply, hottest water.
The expansion tank wants to be on the circulator inlet, which it is in your drawing. No need for both tank and air purger to be in one location necessarily.
Regardless it is not the cause of you issues.
In a true P/S the only checks needed would be after or in the zone circs. That is the whole point of closely spaced tees
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I'm just The owner of this system, not the designer.
The shutoff valves above the mix valves are for service i guess, but i was trying to help the situation by limiting flow to 1 & 3...
The 4 images of boiler setups above, ⁶all show the exp tank in the return line?
The mix valves are all flowing in the correct direction.
The three circ pumps all have integral checks.
I've seen the term " closely spaced tees" many times but not sure what that implies?
The system has a three sepate thermostats that run each zone independently. Z1 & 3 hardly run as Z2 tends to bleed into both to some degree, more so Z3 which is the main issue.
Ball vs balancing valve... not sure why ball valves were used. Is a balancing valve a "globe" valve vs a gate valve? I guess I'm not familiar with balancing valves.
As a note, having the ball valves partly closed does seem to help... the Z2, upstairs zone, is set to run only at night before bedtime so from 7 to midnight which are the hours that the downstairs family room gets baked.
Keep the info coming thanks.
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Ps... Anyone think a hydraulic separator would help? Image 4 in the above set of 4 boiler layouts.
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it needs to be repiped or heavily modified to work properly. I would not spend time and money on questionable work arounds
Take a pic from aways back, maybe we can see where modifications could be made without starting over
Although sawzall surgery is sometimes the only way forward
The sketch a couple posts up is about as simple as you can make it
A boiler loop and 6 sets of tees
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Yup. "It's the air purger that should be on the boiler supply, hottest water." But, those air scoops make it so darn easy to connect an EX-tank to, what's a feller to do. I guess one could do it correctly.
What I would do is to wrap some black electrical tape around all the pipes connected between Zone 2 and Zone 3 and shoot the tape with a laser thermometer and record the temps to find out the path that the hot water is taking from Zone 2 while 2 is running. The path may not be as you diagrammed on your sketch.
Take the temps when cold and then hot.
I like thermostatic mixing valves that have check valves on the inputs.
Before you can correct a problem, one must know the sequences that caused the problem.
If you want to more fully understand hydronics, you can OOGLE in the search bar "Caleffi Idronics" or "Coffee With Caleffi" and you will bring up a whole slew of Youtube videos that would keep you busy for a month just looking at them.
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Yes, globe valves are more preferable than ball valves, but they don't tell you anything. What you want to know is the flow thru the piping of a sub system. That's what balancing valves do. You have a "HEATING SYSTEM" as your diagram shows, but, it is comprised of many sub systems. Zone 1, 2, & 3 are sub systems. You don't want one sub sys interfering with another sub sys, which is your problem. That's what closely spaced tees and hydrolic separators do. They prevent interference between sub sys.
It's all about flows of heated water and controlling those flows, sending it where you want it to go and stopping it from going where you don't want it to go. There are tons of Caleffi videos that show you how to achieve this goal.
But, We often want a quick fix. So, based upon your diagram, I would put a inline balancing valves on the returns of each zone to the common return pipe, such as the Caleffi Quicksetter Balancing Valve w/Flow Meter. But, they're pricey, so I would do it on Zone 2 and a Caleffi inline check valve on the return from Zone 3 if you have ghost flows up the return from Zone 2. It's difficult to know the fix unless you know the cause.
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If it piped as the drawing shows, no amount of of checks and balance valves will make it right
While water wants to take the path of least resistance it will cross through a 3 way under the right condition which is what the OP is experiencing
Take a red pencil and trace the flow pathways as it leaves the boiler
With the boiler pump running, there are multiple paths, including through the zones
Additionally with missing or misplaced checks, reverse flow could as also be going on
I think a sep or proper primary secondary piping is the best answer
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I agree, correct piping is the solution. I'm cheap, so I look for an economical solution that might work. Water flowing under its own head takes the path of least resistance, But, water under pressure can do all kinds of untoward things, I would think. Given the choice of two paths, under pressure, most water will flow thru the least resistive path.
Perhaps, a Taco 3way i-series mixing valve could be configured to work on Zone 3. I have no idea where the flow of hot water is getting into Zone 3, however, one can be sure it is thru, either, the supply or return or both?.
I'm really a big believer in balancing valves to regulate flow in an over pumped zone. Not saying it is, but, I don't know.
Just spit-balling here. What about a pressure differential valve at the end of the supply manifold piping to the return manifold piping. The boiler pump is additive to the zone pumps as the pressure loss thru the cast iron boiler is low and the supply piping pressure loss may be low, too. We use to do that with zone valves before variable speed pumps.
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Here is some color added. For flow from the boiler to get back to the boiler it has to go through either a zone or the cross over valve, whatever it's intent is.
Also the boiler pump gets put in series with the zone pumps, if both run. I assume the boiler pump runs with any heat call.
Also the 3 way valve wants the return from the zone back at the C port in addition to the return to the boiler. It tempers the mix with the cooler return from the radiant loop. I'd like to see the return tied right at the 3 way. An example of
a 3 way piped off closely spaced tees.
When we use the term "head" in close loop hydronics it is the mechanical energ that the pumps add to the circuit. It doesn't have anything to do with distance, elevation changes, etc.
Lift Head, H lift used for sump pump sizing, for example is a different use of the word. Although the pump still imparts it mechanical energy to get the water up and out.
credit Deppmann
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Here's a picture of the system, kinda difficult to make everything out which is why I drew the schematic.
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Curious why HomerjS brings up the air purge in supply line? Not understanding how that will help the situation, even if its a more appropriate placement...
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Also finding it interesting that these layouts with " closely spaced tees" are putting the return back into the supply line??? Won't that dilute the supply heat to the next zone?
Amateurs, so annoying aren't we...
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Air comes out of solution best at the hottest point, so as a general recommendation air purgers go at the supply. But that is not what is causing your issues.
Looks like some work was done here? A check added to the bypass?? Someone shooting the parts cannon at it?
Think of a primary loop as a conveyer belt on your system.
The boiler loads heat into that conveyer. To take a portion of heat out you tap into the conveyer belt.
By using two tees close together you create a hydraulic separation between the conveyer and the zone. So the individual zones just pull off the conveyer what they need. And yes, in your example each set of tees down the line receives lower water temperature.
With low temperature zones that is not a concern. You have mixing valves to adjust the temperature you need.
I don't know how deep you want to dive into theory?
This issue 19 we took the most common mistakes made in piping and tried to explain and show the fix. Many are missed attempts at primary secondary. I think you will find your exact piping in here, sorry.
Another good read by our host
Here is a way. hand sketch, I think you could correct this with the least amount of repiping.
Connect the upper red line with the lower blue line, red line shown. Now you have you zone loop.
Next the boiler needs to feed a supply of hot into that loop, but also a return back. Closely spaced tees MAKE a primary secondary piping system.
Now system and pumps are isolated from one another. Boiler pump no longer interferes with the zone flow, they are isolated, hydraulically speaking.
It will be a messy version of this "horseshoe" piping method.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
Wfrcrownbwf, asked, "Also finding it interesting that these layouts with " closely spaced tees" are putting the return back into the supply line??? Won't that dilute the supply heat to the next zone?" Yes, definitely. But, you notice there's always a but, not all zones do run at the same time, also, the flow in GPMs in the common piping is higher than the flow thru the zones. That's a mitigating factor.
I know your sys isn't perfect as it has mistakes in its construction, but, there we go again, the problem is that when Zone 2 is running whether Zone 3 is running or not, Zone 3 over heats. This can only happen thru the common piping supply and or return. If the sys is satisfactory in your opinion except for this problem, then fix the problem. You have many choices some more costly than others. There are a lot of options, maybe call in a hydronic expert to give you hands on testing and advice and there are options by the fearless pros on this site.
Have you considered that you might have a faulty mixing valve on Zone 3. That's where temperature checks would be helpful.
hot_rod, when I said, "water flowing under its own head…", I meant an open sys. That came from a paper that I read a jillion years ago, written by a plumbing or sanitary engineer discussing flows in a sewer pipe. That was his sentence and I liked it.
I know how head is used in hydronics, mechanical energy (pump) applied to water causing it to flow. When you read my replies, I always say "Head Energy". Water flowing under its own head is exactly the same thing in an open sys, energy imparted to water causing it to flow. What is the magical motor that imparts energy to water that causes it to flow in an open sys? It's called Gravity. Who ever thought up Gravity sure knew what he was doing. We couldn't live {exist) without Gravity. So, I think, open and closed head energy is about the same.
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Ok, I think we're getting down to it. I shut off zone 2 above the mix valve and yes, no heat. I guess that kinda narrows it down to "over pumped"? The boiler feed pump pushing thru the inactive zones it would seem.
Hot-rod, the thing you were asking about in the bypass line is a union, so the mix valves could be serviced. I couldn't separate the supply & return lines to access the mix valves without it.
The system has been in use for 20 years and has always presented some problems, but has been effective in heating the house, so not devastating.
Homer JS, seems like your suggestion would be fairly easy to implement with the given layout, assuming that would be a correct solution... I see the air bleed is shown in the supply line. Should that also be changed, or just a preferred location. I don't seem to have air entrapment issues currently.
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HomerJS... OMG! you asked if Z3 mix was installed backwards and I said no, but was just down looking at what it would take to implement the changes to the new proposal and noticed that indeed Z3 mix valves is upside-down. Cold to Hot and Hot to Cold...
Gonna have to straighten out tomorrow and see result... i had leaks with the original Taco mixers and a few of the shutoff & had a service guy replace the bad ones last heating season. I guess that must be when that happened...
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Hope that is your solution. That would be nice.
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