home boiler replacement in spring, eastern Upper Peninsula MI

shambles · September 17

I'm having the asbestos taken out this fall (I think), and my 1962 Winkler with ca. 1975 Adams gas burner (hot water heat). Reality is I am far from any big city, so finding competent installer is a long shot at best. The one estimate I got thus far seemed like 'replace everything with what we sell even if it (e.g., circ. pump) is only 12-15 years old and works fine (we can't guarantee it'll work if we don't replace it').

Any general advice for those of us in the provinces?

mattmia2 · September 17

It is normal to replace the boiler trim with the boiler, unless you have some complicated radiant system that is mixing a bunch of different temps or a bunch of zones and a manifold or something like that, if it is just a boiler heating some fin tube or convectors or radiators you would usually replace everything around the boiler. The labor to salvage, recondition, and re-install a couple hundred dollar part is going to be a wash.

You're probably closer to Minnesota and Wisconsin than to people who know hydronics in Michigan.

offdutytech · September 17

You have to look at it from a contractor perspective. When I come in and give you a quote to replace your system and there's 1 or two pumps i'm going to include that in my price. I warranty the pumps, guarantee that the system works and provides to provide you heat when you need it. In the overall picture of the project it's a very minimal cost. If the customer asks to keep the pumps as a spare ok, no issue with that. If a system let's say has 10 zone pumps, yes that can add up and that's a different conversation. It's one where i'll give them the option for new pumps or keep the existing with the sign off that I can't be responsible for the existing pumps if there's an issue.

Depending on where you are in the UP you might have to check south of the bridge. The Traverse City Area has some hydronics guys or maybe make a few calls to contractors in Marquette or even call Sid Harvey and ask for some recommendations they have a branch up that way.

Are you looking for another cast iron or go with modcon boiler. If you post some pics we can better help you out. I can reach out to some suppliers here down state and see if I can put you in contact with a local or local ish hydronics contractor.

shambles · September 18

Thanks. Who is Sid Harvey? I've tried a couple places in the Sault, about 60 miles from me, only one interested. Ditto St. Ignace, same distance. One there was quite helpful on the phone, so will probably have them out (they'll charge for estimate which seems reasonable for the time), and got a reference for one in Marquette area (100mi.). Ideally I'd get at least 3…

Here's a rough web page with some pictures:

https://rjl.us/house/hydro-heat.htm

The gas burner says '50-200,000 BTU, adjustable. A few online 'calculate your boiler size needs' websites give ~90,000 based on some combo of house age, footage, climate zone, insulation, etc.

Ca. 1890 house, ~1800 ft2, blown-in cellulose wall insulation ca. 1985, attic insulated & vented properly, wood windows with wood storm windows and as I get to them, spring bronze weatherstripping. Solid & well-built. In a village (as opposed to on some windblown treeless mound like so many houses). I don't plan on ever moving, all house maintenance toward making it last another 130 years (boiler cost may hit the limit). I've done a lot to decrease heat loss in the 5 years I've been here. Normal winter lows are 5f a coupole 2-3x/winter, -10 or so for a day last winter. Usually only a few days too warm in summer, with combo of windows, shades, & fans (no AC).

Existing setup heats house more than adequately, I usually have the thermostat down low & (if I can recall correctly) it only cycles on (burning) maybe 2-3x/hr; in other words I never have had to push it in 5+ years here (down to ~10f).

I found a copy of 'form 1504h' but haven't done it yet, but have got sizes of all radiators, room sizes, etc.

The circulation pump looks like it was replaced a few years before I bought the house; I believe it's more like a $1500 (or so) part… Of course they can't guarantee my gas inlet or radiators won't break either, but — you see what I'm saying? Or for cars: it's not normal to replace the control arm when replacing ball joints (or muffler bearings when changing tires). Would there be any need to replace the pump based on new boiler?

I'm late 50s, not so well-paid US Gov field scientist (all the job threats & minimal retirement income associated) and can't imagine I'd have a spare $10k (in 2040 $ or otherwise) available to replace anything in 15 years, so guessing a cast iron boiler of ~85% efficiency vs. a more fragile modern 95% one is what I'd want, ideally.

Got scared a few weeks back when I was trying to light the pilot on the speedflame (had it turned down thermostat since June, & turned off gas a few weeks earlier to replace kitchen stove), seemed like it wasn't lighting (no sound & didn't see anything ion the little hole) but after numerous attempts I just tried turning the thermostat up & it fired up normally, whew. So no hurry this fall but may as well get it done because not sure I'd be able to afford it at all in a few years (income, inflation, and economy).

offdutytech · September 18

Sid Harvey is a wholesale supplier for contractors. They have a good pulse on what companies do hydronic work. I've called up there to order some oil burner parts and were helpful.

mattmia2 · September 18

is it all one zone? balancing those convector cabinets and cast iron radiators on the same zone will be very difficult.

the circulator is an old 3 piece circulator. you could have replaced it with a much less expensive wet rotor circulator. probably not a bad idea to add a magnetic dirt separator to the new system with all the cast iron radiators and steel piping.

unless you go with a mod con, which would work great on that system if you split the radiators and convectors in to 2 zones, you will need return water temp protection on the new boiler because of the mass of that converted gravity system.

that convector inside the cabinet missing its cabinet isn't going to heat well, it gets its output from the convector cabinet drafting air through the elements.

especially in the up you may need the pipe insulation in the crawl space to keep it from freezing.

that broken cap is the cap to the curb box for the water service. it is a tube that goes down to the curb stop on the water service.

mattmia2 · September 18

the copper tube on the convector missing its cabinet is so that when that automatic vent inevitably leaks it leaks wherever that tube goes instead of under the cabinet.

this one looks like it is sealed in a box where it isn't going to do much of anything, it has no way to pull air in and the chase to form the draft isn't tall enough

shambles · September 18

Thanks. The pix are from when I just bought the house in 2020, posted question here as was new to HW heat, changed out a few of the ones higher on page for this question.

.. So some lower questions I figured out, even though the village works didn't seem to care that there'd a hole in the water shutoff!, and those dusty little fin/tube rads were discussed then, incl. drilling holes in the wood of the one for convection; I haven't done it yet nor even screwed/glued it together properly, that bathroom's never too cold I guess or haven't gotten to it.

I sure love the old iron radiators though (have added granite or marble slab remainders from the fancy counter place on top of most for shelves or Cat lounges. The ca 1940s in-wall ones are OK, though the ones that have to run through the crawlspace don't heat as high; I'm not having that asbestos removed & it'd be a pain in the arse to get to also to cover or repair with something extra).

Also compression tank, not expansion (I bought DH's book)!

All one zone; I 'discovered' last winter that if I keep the french door closed that separates the front door area & stairs up, the temperature not only stays a lot warmer down & not as hot up (= more even), but also lowered my 2-3 months of high bills from $400 to $300 (may be in part from adding window seals, etc. last year also). The area near the front door seems particularly poorly insulated, probably because of difficulty drilling & blowing in the cellulose back when (but door is properly bronze-weatherstripped!). So closing that door I guess keeps that cold from pouring in & displacing the downstairs hear up.

Also should add that in normal winter evening of ~20-30f the circulation/heat may only come on once every hour or 3 or so at night when I turn it down a bit.

mattmia2 · September 18

the reason that the convectors don't heat so well, they heat and cool quickly so they want several cycles per hour, the cast iron has a lot more mass both in the iron and in the water inside so it takes linger to heat but radiates that heat for a while after the boiler shuts off so it wants fewer cycles per hour. if you either put the convectors on a separate zone or replaced them with some salvaged cast iron radiators it would be more even. the piping through the crawlspace really doesn't lose a whole lot of heat.

hot_rod · September 18

maybe @GGross knows someone up in that area

There are competent hydronic folks in that area, many are small shops that don’t advertise

Local plumbing/ heating wholesalers are a can be a source for referrals

EdTheHeaterMan · September 21

I ran my business that way. I never wanted to get into the conversation about "I just spent $$$,000.00 with your company and now you want to charge me to fix my thermostat because it was not included with the job"

If you have zone valves that are 10 years old and a boiler that is 50 years old, you are getting the boiler, the zone valves and the thermostats that operate each zone valve. I would rather let my competitors deal with that customer. You get everything that could go wrong and we cover the entire job under the warrant and subsequent years service agreements. It is actually less expensive in the long run if you have one "old" part fail in the few years after the replacements job. Emergency service call fee, parts required shipping or pickup at supply house, return trip, actual labor time on the job, I get paid by you for all that extra expense that goes into saving some money on using existing parts. Especially if the part touches water and I need to drain the system to replace the part.

GGross · September 23

Straits heating and cooling in St Ignace knows hydronics. I have known the owner of the company to drive to the lower peninsula to grab parts after hours for his customers, and from all of my dealings with him he is committed to doing good work.

shambles · September 27

OK, thanks for the Straits suggestion & others, I phoned them and got a very good impression & helpful info so they're on my 'starred' list do take a look (probably in spring). Polite and professional is the most important part of the sales pitch!

Also calling the distributors was a good idea; I got a couple good leads (incl another recommendation for Straits) from that, so thanks.

As for first impressions & ability to communicate from other places - as opposed to the 'you'll buy what I say without explanation and questions unwelcome because I know it all & make too much money to bother otherwise' attitude… Which I am afraid I've seen here more than a time or two (not all) .. those are the types I want to avoid. Of course web discussions are a little 'looser' so a little jabbing or hyperbole is OK & not necessarily reflective of who someone deals with a customer on the phone or at their home, but when the 'billable hours' including consultation & estimate are going nothing chases me away faster.

From calling advertised or 'found' regional; places I've gotten politeness but also rudeness, un-returned messages, 'businesses' who can't quite seem to work their email, etc. in the last month or so. The only really local shop boasted that they has ~78 heaters to install in hunting cabins for the Tribe, but would call me next week .. 20-some days ago .. and never did.

Some professions seem to do better than others at making potential customers feel like fellow humans vs. pests. Would I get the same if I were having a $10k suit tailored?? I will never know, but business professionalism and courtesy is still most important to me even if it seems to be regarded as silly or old fashioned from $2 coffee shop attendant to $200k real estate agent transaction.

Because there's way too much I don't know that I have to decide from those first (maybe last) impressions, not least of which would be further unpleasant or uncomfortable discussions! Luckily there are many businesses, or at least some, at all levels (incl. me in mine) who find everything - including the sale - is just more fun and better if you make is a pleasure and not a hassle. ****, I learned all this in school 40 years ago, maybe it's too controversial to teach anymore.

But really, a <10y.o. $1500 circulation pump, like the car example I used earlier, if it can't be re-used because of some flow parameters or other reasons inconsistent with new system, or whatever; OK, tell me so I know instead of acting like I'm too dumb and don't know the business so it's too much to bother. It might be worth 'getting into the conversation' if you are doing this for pay. Also makes a good impression on the business and might make 'the profession' seem more appealing to youngsters as opposed to a bunch of curmudgeons (and I am surely that at times myself, just not when dealing with those to whom politeness is proper)!

And it's easy enough to just say 'that part IO didn't replace that later broke isn't warranted because I didn't supply it. Sheesh, even estimates ought to say that.

No need for an hour, but 5 minutes for a $10k job? This is similar to automotive shops I've wasted too much time on over the years (because the mechanics are unable to communicate anything other than contempt) trying to find ones that can do the work I need (and I've worked on a /lot/ of cars my own and in a commercial garage so know something - but even if I hadn't, I am intelligent enough to understand so long at the person can communicate… So yes, business courtesy and professionalism is very important!).

Anyway, I'm having the asbestos done this fall & will continue in the spring on the boiler when maybe things are a wee more mellow & this seems like an emergency for anybody. But still I hope for 3 estimates and a courteous & professional company, I am determined!

By the way, if anybody needs a suggestion for UP asbestos remediation ask, because I found one who has an attitude of business courtesy & attention to detail, so I am confident my $4500 or whatever will provide equally detailed & professional work rather than a dismal memory of a big expense by grouches.

Sorry for the general insults toward a few, and I know 'mr. know it all' types are /particularly/ all-knowing on the web, but it burns me up same as 'real life'. All the suggestions & opinions are useful.

EBEBRATT-Ed · September 27

@shambles

I would urge you very strongly to focus on the best contractor to do the job…….not the cheapest price.

You already have 2 good referrals for Straits.

shambles · September 28

Yes - can't be sure of course but 2 positive referrals and a polite helpful phone call is key. I have no heirs and plan to never sell the house (so no profit motive) but still, everything I do is to make the house last another 130 years (hoping civilization can do so as well). No big box crap repairs, ever; 1890 quality or bust (or better or as close as I can get, & thank goodness for Restore). As many with old houses have come to know & I believe, it's all much bigger than me — as the ghosts of the house have also told me. There's inertia here way bigger than my puny life & that's what I care most about.

EBEBRATT-Ed · September 28

I understand you can never be 100% sure about any contractor. many of us on this site usually say the contractor is more important than the equipment selected.

And it's true. I would always pick a good contractor installing a lower quality boiler than have a hack install the best boiler ever made.

home boiler replacement in spring, eastern Upper Peninsula MI

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