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Long story, but indirect tank probably needs to be replaced. Not sure what to get...

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Comments

  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59
    edited August 6

    I'm I correct in assuming that having it piped as a zone is beneficial with hard water because the reduced time with water flowing through the HX reduces scale build up?

    Are there any disadvantages to having it piped as a zone? If not, is the advantage of piping it to the bypass simply that 1 fewer zone valve is required, which in my case doesn't apply because I already have the separate zone?

    Does the controller operate any differently in the 2 cases, other than not needing to open the DHW zone valve in the bypass-piped case? For example, is the circulator always running the same amount of time in both cases?

    If the HX were piped as a zone, would I keep the existing 3/4" pipe or change the whole loop to 1/2"?

  • szwedj
    szwedj Member Posts: 80

    Yes, correct

    No disadvantages, and you are correct.

    The system manager operates exactly the same.

    Same 3/4" but the unions tails at the plate are 1/2", so you reduce it there.

    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59

    IF I asked my plumber to do this, would he be able to do the wiring between the system manager for the domestic water circulator and make any other required changes, or does an electrician have to get involved?Obviously, even with a regular indirect, he'd have to at least touch the aquastat wiring.

  • szwedj
    szwedj Member Posts: 80

    The wiring is pretty typical, one pair of low voltage connections and a pair of line voltage.

    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59
    edited August 6

    I talked to an experienced local EK installer and he was not aware that the plate heat exchanger could be piped as a zone rather than on the bypass. Is the separate zone option a relatively new thing?

  • szwedj
    szwedj Member Posts: 80

    Hot water zone kits have been available for a long time, but the more recent pre-piped tank option has made them a lot more popular. As mentioned, the plate piped in the bypass is the standard configuration for a heat and hot water system which works very well.

    Joe Szwed
    Energy Kinetics
  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59
    edited August 6

    I'm doing more research into the cons of the EK system:

    The EK system is very similar to a booster tank connected to a tankless coil, which has gone out of style. Is that because tankless coils have gone out of style, or because of the increased complexity of having another circulator that can fail, or something else? The EK system would also be susceptible to a DHW circulator failure, while an indirect has fewer moving parts that can fail. I understand that a circulator failure can be diagnosed and fixed without having the replace the whole setup.

    The EK tank is warrantied for 10 years while a stainless steel indirect has a limited lifetime warranty. I recognize the irony of me pointing this out given that my failed indirect has a supposed warranty that I'm unlikely to be able to take advantage of due to my water conditions and also having not filled out the registration card. I'll also point out that the Superstor warranty is more forgiving than the Megastor such that my water conditions fall within the acceptable range for the former but not the latter. On the other hand, I also recognize that parts-only warranties will only cover a fraction of the entire cost of replacement, especially with labor rates continually going up. Anecdotally, I've talked to at least 2 knowledgeable installers who claim that stainless indirect tanks tend to significantly outlast EK tanks, and would prefer them in their own homes for that reason despite the reduction in fuel efficiency.

    EK tanks have an anode rod that needs to be changed out periodically, while many stainless indirect tanks have no such requirement.

    It's curious that a simple storage tank with no internal heat exchanger coil would not be able to easily outlast an indirect under identical conditions.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,921

    Hi, In agressive or salty or acidic waters, glass-lined steel seems to outlast stainless. The lined steel can deal with a wider range of waters. I might ask EK if they would still honor their warranty if a powered anode were installed. This would eliminate the periodic need to replace the anode. In most waters, that's done roughly every three years, and isn't that difficult after it's been done the first time, but a powered anode might be an option for you.

    Yours, Larry

    mattmia2
  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59

    So, the glass lined won't last as long with my pH of 8.27?

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,921

    Hi, Moderately high pH doesn't damage glass that I've ever seen or read about. High pressure and pressure fluctuations damage glass as well as higher temps. I've seen that when sediment builds up in gas fired heaters, the high temps under the sediment cause the glass to almost completely dissolve. Where pressure has been too high, I find flakes of the glass lining in the sediment.

    Yours, Larry

    HVACNUT
  • thomase00
    thomase00 Member Posts: 59
    edited August 7

    I just noticed that the house pressure is going above 80psi (!) when the boiler is heating the indirect. Is that only because of the heat exchanger leak or would it be happening regardless of the leak due to thermal expansion while heating, meaning that I definitely should have a DHW expansion tank?

    Since I'm only intermittently running the boiler while supervising it, I can crack open the faucet at the slop sink while the indirect is recovering in order to relieve the excess pressure.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 25,502

    If you have aggressive water, or high chloride, a glass lined steel tank would be my choice. Either indirect or separate HX.

    A basic 50 or 75 gallon glass indirect as you have imagined would be least expensive, simplest install.50 gallons is plenty for most families. An indirect recovers quickly compared to a basic gas fired tan. More BTUs available. <b

    LAARS, Bradford White, Lochinvar, Bock are a few brands. I think all come with dual anode. A cutaway of the Bock attached.

    What I like about these 3 brands, same coil basically, is they have a large 1-1/2" diameter smooth coil inside. So mineral build up on the coil is minimized, and you have very little pressure drop in that large coil.

    I imagine the tank will be identical whether you go with a glass indirect, or a glass tank withy external HX.

    Address the over-pressurization, 80 psi is max. per code and some of the plumbing equipment.

    Screenshot 2025-08-07 at 1.12.39 PM.png Screenshot 2025-08-07 at 1.13.00 PM.png Screenshot 2025-08-07 at 1.17.44 PM.png
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • mattmia2
    mattmia2 Member Posts: 13,862

    water can't flow from lower pressure to higher pressure so without a dhw expansion tank the pressure will rise until it matches the main pressure even if there is no check valve in the pressure reducing valve. you need an expansion tank on the dhw.