TurboMax 30-3 or HTP Superstor Ultra-Max MSSU-45 Help!
I have a decision to make and am looking for any guidence. I currently have a HTP SuperStor 40 Gallon DHW indirect that is 30 years old, yes, 30 years. Never had any issues. It is now not making enough hot water and also blowing off out of the T-P valve every other day.
My Boiler is a oil fired Weil Mcclain cast iron with Riello head rated at 180K BTU. We like to keep our DHW at 130-140 deg.
I am being told that the current "cat's meow" would be the TurboMax 30-3 or 50-3 and the HTP SuperStor's are not what they used to be......HTP has a new model that is called the Ultra-MAX model MSSU-45N. Stainless tank and Stainless HX coil.
I will add that I have recently reached out to HTP for info and discussion and they have been very difficult to get any response or information of substance.
Has anyone had personal experiance with these 2 choices? What are your recomendations? Any advise, direction or information would greatly be appreciated. Thanks!
Comments
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Select the job based on the better contractor, not the equipment.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Compare DHW production based on boiler SWT. The reverse Indirects tend to need high tank temperatures to give you good DHW production.
Some indirect brands are bumping up the coil sizes to work better with lower SWT, especially when paired with condensing boilers. Maybe that is the case with the ultra max?
If the 40 has served you well, either of those should perform as well or better for DHW capacity.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream
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an interesting tank here, an example of a lot of coil capacityBob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I agree that HTP has had to make changes based on budget. Overall from my experience they've been very good, the numbers have been spot on, and the warranty (though a little bit of a pain) has been honored.
I want to try a TurboMax but no one reps them in my area so that steers me away.
Tom
Montpelier Vt0 -
The corrugated heat exchanger in the new HTP MSSU is new. Never be the guinea pig. For the same reason you don't use corrugated flex drain pipe under your sink, I feel like deposits will collect in the corrugations over time and be a pain to clean/flush as it's not a smooth bore. (edit: guess they claim the opposite: Lightweight, corrugated stainless steel Super Flex Heat Exchanger allows the coil to flex, minimizing scale buildup and prolonging tank life). Not sure why they used the word lightweight, as if anyone ever cared about the weight and rather has a negative connotation.
If you've been happy with your tank for all these years, my personal recommendation is to stick with the tried and true HTP SSU-45N. No built-in electronics to fail and have trouble getting in the future. Just a widely available, easily replaceable aquastat for your boiler.
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Thank you all for your comments and advise. I am still undecided and talking to different plumbers and seeking additional comments on the TurboMax vs HTP Ultra-Max. Thanks.0
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I suspect that is the same stainless flex we use as solar piping material. Which is really nothing more than un-jacketed CSST tube. If so it is very thin walled tube, I’d sure keep an eye on Chlorides.dko said:The corrugated heat exchanger in the new HTP MSSU is new. Never be the guinea pig. For the same reason you don't use corrugated flex drain pipe under your sink, I feel like deposits will collect in the corrugations over time and be a pain to clean/flush as it's not a smooth bore. (edit: guess they claim the opposite: Lightweight, corrugated stainless steel Super Flex Heat Exchanger allows the coil to flex, minimizing scale buildup and prolonging tank life). Not sure why they used the word lightweight, as if anyone ever cared about the weight and rather has a negative connotation.
If you've been happy with your tank for all these years, my personal recommendation is to stick with the tried and true HTP SSU-45N. No built-in electronics to fail and have trouble getting in the future. Just a widely available, easily replaceable aquastat for your boiler.
The corrugations help assure turbulent flow but come with a high pressure drop also.
.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Is your boiler piped and sized to accept the Turbomax?
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there isn't anything that can go wrong with the tank that would cause the tank t&p to blow off. a problem with a mixing valve or dhw expansion tank could.
if the boiler's pressure relief is blowing off the tank could cause that but other things could too. maybe your problem is not the tank.
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they used to use a copper nickel coil and clamed the expansion helped dislodge deposits.
just noticed i'm answering year old questions…
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I currently have a US Boiler Alliance SL50 indirect water heater and it's connected to my US Boiler Burnham ES2-5 model ES25BNI-T boiler. I spoke to someone at Turbomax and the guy did a lot of calculations using the specs of the boiler and the number of baths and said my boiler can accept either the Turbomax 30-3 or 50-3. The specs of my boiler can be found at either of the following links.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Burnham-ES25BNI-T-ES2-5-103000-BTU-Output-High-Efficiency-Cast-Iron-Boiler-NG
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no one ever complained that their hot water tank was too big…
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The draw back to the turbo max is that it is an instantaneous hot water heater. Meaning that the tank is full of boiler hot water and the domestic hot water is in the coils. Similar to a tankless hot water heater only its external to the boiler. To make sure that you can get the domestic hot water recovery your boiler cannot be used as a cold start as it will take a long time to recover the boiler side hot water. The thermostat in the tank is sensing tank temperature, not domestic hot water temperature like a SS45. So In the summer time your boiler will be firing off just to maintain tank temperature. you can't let the tank get cold and expect to jump in the shower and get hot water. There will be no heat to transfer to the domestic water if you let the tank tank cool. Turbomax is a really good product. Probably a little to good for residential but since i've only installed them in commercial applications I can speak for the small ones. And they are heavy.
On the other hand the Superstor indirect is a very good product. its simple and they last. They are light weight and efficient. With the proper size boiler they have excellent recovery rates. I can speak from experience. I had (past tense due to divorce) a superstor SS60 and with 2 showers and 5 bodies taking showers in less than a 45 minute time frame I saw no drop in hot water temperature. And I didn't have a mixing valve on my tank at the time. I like to experiment so this was a good test.
To sum it up they are both really good but you current set up works and it might need to be tweeked to support the turbomax.
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The Turbomax needs full 1.25" supply and return, which means the boiler manifolds must be at least 1.25". The SS is probably 1" S & R.
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Of course a boiler can be cold start with a Turbomax. The boiler responds to recover just like a standard indirect. Tank temperature is set at or near the boiler limit temperature. Thats why it needs a mixing valve on the domestic hot. Heat loss from the tank isn't any different than a standard indirect.
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Thanks for your detailed response. Please forgive my ignorance about all of this stuff, but part of your response confused me. You said this about the Turbomax: "In the summer time your boiler will be firing off just to maintain tank temperature." Won't my boiler be firing off in the summertime anyway with the Turbomax since the DHW comes from the boiler and the Turbomax effectively acts as a pass through for the DHW from the boiler? I also thought Turbomax tank just serves as a backup in case the boiler can't provide enough DHW at a particular time. Are you saying that the SuperStor will be more efficient than the Turbomax? The plumber I selected basically said the installed price of the SuperStor SSU-45N and the Turbomax 30-3 are almost the same. Since the price is the same which one would you choose?
The thing that made me hesitant about the HTC SuperStor SSU-45N was the negative reviews I saw on the Home Depot listing here: SuperStor 45 Gal. Indirect Water Heater Storage Tank SSU-45N - The Home Depot. Of course those negative reviews could be because people tried to install the water heater themselves and screwed it up.
According to the Burnham ES2 spec sheet, the ES25 has 1.25" supply and return. Hopefully that's what you mean. I'm assuming that means that my boiler is compatible with the Turbomax which is what they also told me. The SuperStor brochure says that the SSU-45N needs boiler inlet and outlet port sizes of 1".
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the turbomax is storing energy in an insulated vessel the same way any indirect is, it is just storing it in 2/3 boiler water rather than mostly dhw. the energy is still stored to heat the water. Since it is transferring energy it will work much better with a storage temp higher than the finished dhw temp and a thermostatic mixing valve to control the final temp. It may not work so well with a mod con if you're trying to design it to keep the mod con in the condensing range. this shouldn't be an issue with a conventional ci boiler.
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With stainless steel you have to be careful about not using it with water with too much chloride in it or it may not last. Areas with a lot of road salt use tend to have high chlorides.
The piping from the boiler has to be 1.25" for the superstore. It could have been reduced if the flow needed for the existing installation can be handled by smaller pipe. if it is, it means some of the near boiler piping needs to be reworked.
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I had to google "mod con" since I'm not familiar with all the plumbing terminology and it appears to stand for modulating condensing boiler. Mine is a cast iron boiler which I'm assuming is what you mean by "ci boiler". My Burnham boiler (as is my Alliance SL50 indirect water heater) are both about 10 years old and I was told the Burnham boiler should last 20-25 years so I'm not planning on changing it anytime soon. So which of the 2 indirect water heaters is more efficient?
I forgot to mention that I have a whole house water softener and catalytic carbon filter connected to the main which does remove chlorine from the water. Do I need to measure the pipes between my current Alliance indirect water heater and my Burham boiler to see what size piping is there now? I can also post a picture of my current setup. Regardless, which indirect hot water heater would you recommend, the Turbomax or the SuperStor?
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I don't think activated carbon removes chloride ions. It removes or decomposes some chlorine disinfectants but I don't think it absorbs the simple ion.
I'm not sure there is a ton of advantage of one over the other in your application. The turbomax being copper on the dhw side would be better if you have high chlorides. It may have mores surface area to the hx so it may be able to transfer more heat to the water in high demand situations depending on the boiler size. I am hesitant to say this because these advantages might not exist in your application.
HTP had some problems with the wells for the aquastat probe, that and not reading the manual seem likely to be the source of the bad reviews. The warranty problems were probably not asking the question the right way.
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Yes, post some pics. The boiler has 1.25" taps, but are the manifolds piped in at least 1.25", and the bull on the Tee's are 1.25" for the water heater, and the circulator flanges are 1.25". See where I'm going?
In most cases a standard indirect is fine. If you've got rain heads, or a jacuzzi tub, or times of multiple DHW demands, then the Turbomax for sure, IMO.
Turbomax tank temperature will be set slightly lower than the boiler limit temperature. Example if boiler limit is 180°, then the setting on the Turbomax should be 175°. Then temper down to 120° with a thermostatic mixing valve.
If the boiler has economy features, make sure the indirect (regardless of which) is wired to bypass any economy setting during a DHW demand. Max BTU's for max recovery.
I've also seen numerous Turbomax installations without a domestic T&P valve installed. The water heater comes with a 50 psi relief valve that's for boiler water. I think its often mistaken for a domestic relief valve.
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Are you basically saying that all the piping components need to be 1.25" otherwise the flow will be restricted by the smallest one?
We do have those Kohler Hydrorail shower columns in both full baths with the diverter to switch between the rain head and the regular handheld shower head but it's rare for more than one of the rain heads to be in use at the same time.
I've attached several pics of my current setup below ncluding one where you can see the rust on the bottom of the Alliance indirect water heater that prompted me to replace it.
All the pipes measure slightly smaller than 1" on the outside so I'm assuming they're one inch and one pipe going from the bottom of the boiler to the water heater was clearly smaller and measured under 3/4" which I marked on the pic.
Edit: I think most of the pipes might be 3/4" since they appear to be 7/8" outside diameter (i.e. slightly less than 1") and the one I marked on the pic as 3/4" might be 5/8" or 1/2".If you need better pics please let me know. It was hard to get a good angle where you can see all the pipes.
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with a short run like that 1”copper would be adequate, carrying 10 gpm or full boiler output if 103k
1” copper measures 1-1/8” od
3/4” would be 7/8
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
Sorry I'm pretty sure I made a mistake with my previous comment about the pipe measurements since I thought the outside diameter determined the pipe size which is obviously wrong. I think most of the pipes might be 3/4" since they appear to be 7/8" outside diameter (i.e. slightly less than 1") and the one I marked on the pic as 3/4" might be 5/8" or 1/2". I took 3 more pics so here they are. The skinny pipe compared to the others connects to the bottom of the boiler. In the last pic you can see where it connects to the pipes connected to the indirect water heater.
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that 1/2" valve connects to the prv to add makeup water to the boiler, it is the cold water supply to the boiler.
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it looks like the piping or possibly the top gasket of the indirect is leaking rather than the tank. you'd have to clean up that mess and see what is wet and if you can absorb it up there and if that makes the dripping out the jacket stop
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Are you saying that the indirect might not yet need to be replaced? The first plumber that came to look said that all the rust at the top of the indirect is a problem after he peeled off all the insulation. I don't see water marks coming from the top of the tank down the front of it to the metal ring at the bottom where it's showing rust but it's possible that water leaked from the top and went down the bank of the the tank and then hit the metal ring on the bottom and that's what causing the rusk. I thought maybe the water leak was coming from the aquastat that had to be replaced about 5 years ago.
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if there is water leaking at the top pipe connections or gasket for the inspection port, it is probably running inside the jacket and back out someplace down lower. the aquastat well could be leaking too.
since it is rusty and crusty something is or was leaking though it might not be the only leak.
it is also possible that it is too eroded where it is leaking or the bolts for the access port are too rusted to take it apart and reassemble it.
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Thanks again. And the last statement in your last comment is exactly what the first plumber said about the top part of the indirect. After he removed the insulation, he said the bolts at the top are too eroded to take it apart so he said it's best to replace it.
My Alliance indirect was manufactured July 31, 2015 and since it has a 10 year warranty from the manufacture date, the plumber said that I could try to do a warranty replacement but I would have to first replace it with a new Alliance water heater and the old one would have to be sent back to the US Boiler distributor for them to evaluate the warranty claim. Then they would decide if they will reimburse me for the new Alliance indirect (not the labor cost to replace it). I figured that they would look for reasons not to reimburse me so I'd rather get a new indirect that didn't requirement anode rod maintenance/replacement like the SuperStor or Turbomax.0 -
Hi, It looks like a leak from the plumbing above the tank caused the problem. Getting warranty might be difficult.
Yours, Larry
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if it has performed adequately, no need to increase the pipe size
If you use a lot of hw, 10 years has probably put a lot of sediment in the tank. I would not spend too much on a repair attempt
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1
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