Boiler failure mystery solved using the pump curve, this weeks video

I take a deep dive to show what happened to a five year old cast iron sectional boiler. The video shows how to read the pump curve and used it as a diagnostic tool for a hydronic system. Hope you like it.
Boiler Lessons
Comments
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Was it short cycling with that single small zone running?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Would a control such as an AquaSmart or HydroStat help with this, by keeping the boiler from getting too hot too quickly?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
@hot_rod It was short cycling and the flow was insufficient so the delta T was too wide. It was shocking the boiler.
@Steamhead Not sure whether that would have worked A simple solution would have been to connect zone 3 up to another zone to insure more flow through the boiler.
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons0 -
The 68 DT calculated will not result in a RWT of 92F. The radiation controls the DT, not the boiler. One zone has no chance of receiving 237K via the 1" piping and the radiation (one zone) has no chance of delivering more than 50K. The remainder simply drives up the SWT until the boiler shuts down on limit (which will happen quickly).
I suspect the problem with the old boiler lies elsewhere.
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@RayWohlfarth , what type of aquastat relay did the old boiler have? If it was a HydroStat or AquaSmart, was it properly configured?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
If you split the 237 ÷4 zones = 60,000 each, so the 1" pipe could deliver 6 gpm. That pump with your calculated EL matches up well. The actual gpm flowing, the OP, is predictable if you plotted out a system curve, put it over the 007 curve. The 5 gpm you put into the pump curve analysis could be more like 7 gpm actual. Still not nearly enough to move the 237K load via a 1" circuit.
If the boiler is a non modulating type I suspect it races to high limit quickly with a 6 gpm, 60K assumed load. Possibly the flue never dries out and it sprinkles down on the boiler?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
Thermal equilibrium reached at this temperature, with one 60k load on the boiler
(60,000/237,000)(180-70)+70=98ºF.Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
but you're forgetting the Cv of the zone valve.never mind it is zoned by circulatorthe 63 dt is if there were no aquastat limiting the temp of the boiler. the issue i think is really the slow speed of the burner to fire again after it shuts off so the aquastat shuts off the burner on high limit, the boiler cools to the cutin of the aquastat as the zone removes heat, then the boiler continues to cool for some time while the flue damper opens and it pre purges and proves flame. while all this happens the zone cools the boiler enough to condense.
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or is it a gravity conversion so it is a system mass issue?
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@Steamhead the aqua stat was a Honeywell L4006A set for 180 degrees F with a 20 degree differential.
@LRCCBJ This was a job that was told to me by another person and I had to find my notes on this project. According to the person, he spoke with the technical department of the boiler manufacturer and they told him the reason for the failure was high delta T. As I am looking at this project and running numbers, I am kinda confused. (It doesn't take much to do that.) If only zone 3 was calling for heat, the delta T should be 20 degrees through that zone.
According to the formula, there should be a wide delta T but the L4006 would prevent that. Perhaps @Hotrod was correct and the condensation was formed by the boiler short cycling and flue never warming. @mattmia2 your theory could be right.
Thanks you gentlemen for schooling this old dog. This industry has a way of humbling a tech. I love that I learn something new every day.
By the way, I found this cool online calculator from Lochinvar for calculating GPM, Delta T, and Btuh Here is the link. Lochinvar calculator
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons0 -
Actually, @RayWohlfarth , I suspect the problem may have been the very high delta T, at least on occasion. Yes, the boiler was controlled by the aquastat, which would have tried very hard to keep the boiler output temperature where it was set — but with the low flow rate through some of the radiation, that part of the boiler would have been hot, but with low circulation in the boiler the specific area where the return connected would have remained cool, if not cold. Very large differential expansion in the block, and … boing.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England1 -
@Jamie Hall Thats the thing about a premature failure like this. It could have one two or more different causes
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons1 -
What confuses me about this is that usually a ci boiler is very happy to sit full of hot water with no flow and the aquastat keeping it at temp so normally a low flow zone though it might cause short cycling and wear out controls and have terrible efficiency shouldn't damage the boiler.
what does cause damage is a system with a lot of mass with all of the water of the system piped directly in to the boiler with no return water temp protection so the mass of the system keeps the boiler from getting above condensing temps before the t-stat is satisfied.
i can see where the first case could be a problem if the internal water passages of the boiler are convoluted or the burner controls mean that the burner takes a long time to fire again after it has shut off.
A water tube boiler like a Laars or a modcon where the lowest turndown ratio is much larger than the smallest zone is likely to have a problem.
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Yeah, don't tankless coil boilers run without circulation? Or does a pump run durning the summer on those. Never played with tankless coil boilers.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I'm with @mattmia2 . This most likely failed from low RWT not from lack of flow.
Usually in older houses with any basic upgrades such as storm windows, the radiators are 2x to 3x over sized. Add in there an oversized boiler that will deliver very hot water very quickly, the zones tend to have very short cycles. Since you have a lot of water in the system, the top of the rads will be hot but the bottom will near always be near room temp, so return water will be very cold most of the heating season.
Short boiler cycles also means the flue stays cold to make things even worse.
Doesn't matter how you do it, high mass rads with cast boiler needs condensation protection.
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Ray, the Lochinvar calculator shows the DT at the boiler. If you only flow 5 GPM through the boiler, it is definitely going to give you a DT of 95.
However, if you flow 5 GPM through one zone of the radiation (50K BTUH) , it's going to give you a DT of 20F.
The boiler is going to climb dramatically in temperature and quickly shutdown on limit because the radiation can only accept and deliver 50K (one zone).
This is a large boiler for the four zones. The only way it returns water below 130F is when all four zones call simultaneously on a cold start. If it is CI radiation, it might be below 130F for at least 30 minutes on a cold start. Is it possible that this boiler has an exceptional number of cold starts when ALL ZONES CALL?
If you do not have this situation, the boiler manufacturer is lying to you (no surprise).
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The soap box I have been on for years now is the misleading boiler protection options that many boiler manufacturers show. These are not absolute protection methods.
The OP system is a classic example or the reason, room temperature water returning at say 68. A properly sized boiler lifting that maybe 20° so the boiler supplies 88°.
How does 88° SWT blend with 68° RTWT to get you to 130° What pump at what speed could do that?
Sad.
And primary secondary piping doesn't offer absolute boiler protection either, another industry myth.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream2 -
@lrccbj The manufacturer would never lie to us. 🤞
@hot_rod Youre right about primary secondary not being the foolproof when low water is returned. The boiler bypass valve has not been one of my favorites unless you have a constant temperature boiler
On instances where I am concerned about low return water temperatures, I used a thermostatic mixing valve like this one. It's filled with wax and factory set for 140 degrees. If the water temperature is below that, it opens and mixes supply water temperature. It seems to work well and there is no field adjustment.
Ray Wohlfarth
Boiler Lessons2 -
The setup that you have shown above has bigger problems that the lack of proper protection for the boiler.
Think about what occurs when the radiation has reached close to the SWT.…………….170F SWT and returns 150F. When the RWT gets to the boiler, the bypass sends a certain percentage of the supply into the return which raises the RWT 10F or more on the way to the boiler. This will bring the average boiler temperature up by the amount of the RWT increase. The aquastat will definitely shutdown on HL much earlier than it would otherwise with such a setup.
Without a proper temperature controlled bypass, the setup shown doesn't work at cold startup and doesn't work after the radiation reaches temperature.
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