Boiler keeps on shutting down with high heat light
starting the night before last night I got a message on my phone from Nest reading “We noticed a potentially urgent heating system issue at Home • Thermostat”. It showed the temp dropped 6 degrees even with the thermostat set to heat at 68. This morning it’s 58.
never had a problem with this previously.Called a plumber who came yesterday and checked the system, couldn’t find any issue and lowered the high heat setting from 190 to 170.
The day before this started we changed the pressure valve and expansion tank. The plumber did not see any issue with the repair. I noted that we did not fully drain the boiler when making the repair, and wondered if this might be related. They said no.
I’m pretty upset that the plumber came and charged us a bundle and didn’t figure anything out. I’m guessing by lowering the high temp it just means the boiler will shut off sooner which, if anything, will result in a colder house, and doesn’t address why it’s shutting down so frequently and unable to do the job it did before.
Any suggestions? I’m pretty desperate hear. It’s only April so it’s not so bad, but this would be a serious issue if it were winter.
Comments
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Are you saying the boiler shuts off because it over heats? That's what I get from the title. If so will it start when it cools? If I had to guess? It's air bound somewhere. Maybe post some pictures of the system so we can see the guage and the piping.
Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver
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I'm with @Grallert on this one — particularly since the system was partly drained to replace the expansion tank.
First, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the system had not been fully purged after draining down. That simply has to be done; how easy it will be to do depends on where you have valves and drain fittings. If you have zones, each one needs to be purged separately.
And this leads me to a concern about the new expansion tank… I have to wonder if, if the system wasn't purged, if properly precharging it to the target system pressure might not have gotten done either…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England3 -
Thank you! This is what my friend was suggesting as well. Didn’t purge the system…. Didn’t know about that or how to do that.
Draining the boiler is challenging because the drain is about an inch off the floor…..Appreciate your direction!!!
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Yes, agree……….the system needs to be purged because air got in when they replaced the components. Easy to do on those three loops, one loop at a time. Turn off the gate valve and open the hose bibb until the air comes out. Make sure the boiler is off and the water is not hot. And it helps to have a bypass around the fill valve to get good pressure behind the purge. Open the gate valve when done and move to the next loop.
Some plumbers know hydronics. Maybe the one you hired doesn't?
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab2 -
A system with purge valves! That's wonderful! To purge each zone is simple: close the manual valves on all three zones — the ones just above the pumps. Pick a zone, put a hose on the handy dandy drain valve on that zone, open that valve and run water through the zone using the manual system feed valve if you have one, or figure out how to run from that drain valve to your doemstic water. You need a lot of water. Run that zone until you get no air. Repeat for the next zone… close the purge drain valves and reopen the valves above the pumps and you may be good to go.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
Did they close any valves on the system when replacing the tank, and forget to open them?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting2 -
I was able to purge the zone that wasn’t getting heat and it seems to have done the trick!!! Thank you!
Very frustrated that there plumbers that came yesterday had no clue about this.0 -
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Did a professional replace the tank and the valve?
Hydroair coils are very prone to getting air bound if not purged.
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yup…. The shark bite fitting was the guy at Lowe’s idea. The previous setup also had a shark bite fitting with a piece of pvc. The guy at the plumbing store said plumbers generally made that piece themselves…..
What would you put there instead? It’s all new to me.
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I would do cpvc because michigan code allows it, but copper with a soldered or propress fitting or a black ell and piece of pipe without threads on the open end are all professional methods.
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Shouldn't bad mouth the plumber. You did some work and then called him in to fix the problem. Yeah he should have looked into it a little more. He had no way of knowing the system wasn't bled. Most in the trade do not want to touch homeowner work.
It creates a huge liability risk for the plumber.
Picture this as I had a coworker who was licensed involved in this situation doing a side job and he had a permit:
Homeowner does some of his own wiring in an attic. Then he calls an electrician to fix an unrelated problem in the kitchen.
Two days later the house burns to the ground due to an electrical fire in the attic.
Who is at fault?
The electrician unfortunately is in for a tough time. No more "innocent till proven guilty" he is the last one in the house with a license.
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The o-rings in the Sharkbite fitting are probably not sealing properly with the pipe not plumb. A regular 90 with a proper length nipple between would have allowed the drop to be straight. NBD
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour
Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab1 -
CPVC is rated to 200°F is that acceptable for a boiler relief tube? Sharkbites are also rated to 200°F.
It would seem neither CPVC or Sharkbite fittings are suitable based on the boilers aquastat and hi limit temperature settings?
A 3/4 male by compression is another option if you want a DIY fitting. Or have HD thread a piece of steel pipe the correct length.
Here is the ICC code
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream1 -
isn't the aquastat set to something like 180?
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It is not uncommon for the high limit to be set 20° over the operating temperature on the aquastat, so 200° hi limit, 180° operating.
Although we see tankless coil boilers operating at 200° come across this list commonly. I think most high limits go to 230 or 240°F.
Low ball fin tube bids often ran the fin tube at 200° to cut down on the amount of baseboard they needed. That higher operating temperature was also part of the IBR Hydronics Institute training years ago.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
but in most systems that isn't the operating temp of the system, right? it is improperly set controls except for the fly by night installs. a piece of plastic pipe at its 180 psi temp at essentially 0 psig isn't going to suddenly turn in to a puddle either.
i wouldn't use it for system piping but it should be fine to get the relief discharge to the floor.
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mine currently has the high temp set at 170.
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I did explain to the plumber very clearly that I had just made these repairs the day before, and had not drained the boiler, and assumed the issue was related. They said the work itself looked good but had no idea about what was wrong.
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If you have a torch and know how to sweast copper do that. If not go to HD or a supply house and buy the fittings you need and have them cut you a piece of pipe or make it up with nipples and couplings.
Don't leave a thread on the bottom end of the pipe
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I was under the impression the plumber replaced the relief valve and extrol. You guys should hang out.
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If I saw what you described above, I would assume that a homeowner that has not clue did it. I would change my way of piping in relief valves if I were you. You wouldn't want other professionals thinking you are not a true craftsman at your chosen trade. But that's just me… (and a few others it seems)
You are absolutely right ALL high limits are set to 180° on ALL heating boilers, unless that are not. And many of those 180° high limits are adjustable all the way up top 240°!!!
But you are probably right about every one of them being set at 180° unless they are not set at 180° for some reason. I myself have set some high limits at 210° because some other professional or DIY installed didn't install enough baseboard heaters in a home to make the home 70° when the outside temperature was -12°F (twelve below). You see, in my part of New Jersey the recommended outdoor design temperature is 14° above zero. So when you get the occasional -12°F for 3 days in a row every eight years or so, and you have no time to add more radiators, you do what you have to in order to get the heat to work.
Now after that, you offer to add more radiators for $$$.00 and see if they want to fix the problem. Often those customers have the problem because they didn't choose the higher price job to begin with and have an inferior system as a result. So they choose to leave the limit set at 210° because the higher fuel usage caused by the higher limit temperature happens in small increments each day, adding radiators cost $$$ all at one time. They are paying one way or the other but can't see the forest for the trees.
Now you come in and replace the relief valve and use CPVC safety tube, You don't check the limit temperature because you are there to replace the relief valve, and that has nothing to do with the temperature settings. The limit fails and the boiler temperature runs away from the 210° limit setting to 230° because a sensor is faulty or you bumped the adjustment by accident, the expansion tank bladder fails the week after you installed the relief valve and the 5 year old is riding his brand new tricycle in the basement and bumps into the boiler by accident on Christmas morning. That ends up with a trip to the emergency department because the safety relief valve you just replaced last week has a melted safety tube. The insurance company gets involved and all of a sudden your insurance company gets a call from the customers insurance company and your insurance premiums double. And you lose a good customer and the other (professional) guy says that he would never use CPVC for a safety tube.
But that will never happen to you because today, you start using a street 90 out of the relief valve and a piece of pipe cut to the proper length with no threads on the discharge side of the pipe (near the floor drain of the floor). And you can take that apart without a torch the next time you need to replace the relief valve in 10 years or so.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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100 psi at 180f. the melting point is around 300f. if the discharge steam is 300 f a lot of other things have also gone wrong.
as far as the aquastat being changed. if someone that doesn't know what they are doing changes things on a gas valve or oil burner or even taps on a blower lots of bad things can happen too.
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@JonathanUpstate I'm sort of a perfectionist and the guys that worked for me thought I worried about the details a little too much, so maybe your system works just fine but if you are the electrician that decided to use the green Taco SR503 (green) relay box, you could do better. If you paid someone to do this, then don't call that guy back ever!
From the looks of this picture, you may have 3 zones, two for central heating and one for hot water.
OR
That tank is a separate electric or gas or propane water heater and you have three room thermostat zones.
Regardless of the zoning situation, that low voltage (thermostat wire) wiring has a lot to be desired. As long as it works, don't touch it. No one from tne neighborhood association will be inspecting this and grading you on how nice it looks. Spend your $$$ on that flat of annuals and a bag if mulch from the nursery to make the outside look nice. Spring has sprung!
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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Really? you are going to stick with CPVC for safety tubes. Forget I said anything.
Edward Young Retired
After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?
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the code says "approved for the temperature of the system", not "approved for temperatures that could exist if the system is worked on by someone that doesn't understand what this clause says or how the controls work". i wouldn't use vinyl. this isn't 1935, there are plastics that are both ductile and can withstand high temps.
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Thank you, Ed. Do you think the plumber/hvac person or the electrician would be responsible for installing that taco panel? We had a contractor who had a team who worked on the renovation. For the most part, we thought they did an excellent job….but there some the that clearly could have been done better. I respect your perfectionism and work standards. That’s unfortunately not so common.
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It looks like separate relays were replaced with that taco zone panel relatively recently, but if that was with the flip or earlier is hard to tell. it certainly is newer than the circulators which might be older than the boiler.
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This was a 1969 house that had probably been built cheaply and not taken care of for a long long time when I got it and had it renovated….so it was an old system that got some major changes. The boiler and circulators are obviously from long ago.
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neither the circulators nor the boiler are anywhere near that old.
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I wouldn’t know. Just know the home had been neglected for many years.
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I don’t have a torch and this sounds like something outside of my comfort zone. The guy at the plumbing supply house did not seem like he was going to accommodate that need, after I showed him my setup.
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The guy we finally called, who setup the boiler initially, is excellent. He talked us through the issue via FaceTime in 15 minutes.
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