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gas boiler conversion

Ghynes440
Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39

We are coming up to get our gas line installed from our energy company next month, and I'm still bouncing back and forth which unit I want to install. I've gotten a bunch of quotes on different setups. we live in a 1890's home, plaster walls but not insulated much after that. 1st floor windows are original. 2.5 stories 2700sqft radiator hot water. I'm hoping you guys can tell me which unit would be best.

First quote was for a Burnham 2e or a New yorker cg50f but since that is a standard efficiency, I would also need a stainless steel chimney liner and we would most likely go with an indirect tank for our hot water.

Second quote was for a Weil-Mclain gv90+5 which is a higher efficiency, but cast iron so it would last a while and it can be side mounted through pvc. Also would either just use our current hot water heater or install a indirect tank.

Third was a Bradford white BTCF199NA3XN High efficiency combi boiler

or a Bosch combi floor unit

We just moved in 2 months ago, and we did have a good amount if not all depending on the quote put aside but we found out we have BATS! fun stuff so we have to pay to get them removed.

We are going to live in this house forever, so I don't want to regret doing something that's not going to last. I hate the idea of having to get someone to install a stainless steel liner because that just adds to the cost, but if it's the best option then we will go with that.

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,377
    edited April 12

    The forever home may need to have a replacement boiler in 17 to 22 years if you go with a Mod-Con Combi.  and they are more expensive that a conventional CI boiler.  I would recommend that you stay with Oil Heat if there was no [problem with the current system.  When you try to justify the cost of a new boiler system just to convert to Gas from Oil there really is no break even point in the foreseeable future.  The savings you will realize from that conversion will not be enough to pay for itself within the lifetime of a ModCon, Combi.  For example using hypothetical numbers (because we are not supposed to talk about prices on this site)

    Let's say that a complete new system will be about $15,000.00 for the most efficient boiler. (These numbers are older than today’s) and you spend $2,000.00 per year on fuel oil.


    The 15,000.00 job will end up with a gas bill of 1500.00 per year.

     That is a $500.00 per year savings

    How many years of saving $500.00 will it take to equal $15,000.00? 

    Without considering inflation… that would be 30 years.   

    The ModCon Combi has a life expectancy of 20 years.  So if you keep your old oil burner, in 20 years you would have saved $5000.00 by not purchasing a new ModCon Combi.  


    On the other hand, If you have a broken oil boiler or one that is from the 1930’s that used to burn coal, and is operating at only 45% overall efficiency then that is a different story.  You need to at least replace it with a $10,000.00 replacement oil boiler.  When comparing that to a $15,000.00 Gas boiler that will save you 500.00 per year over that of the replacement oil boiler, then you have a payback that makes sense.   Since you need to spend $10,000 anyway the you only need to decide between the oil or the Gas for an additional $5,000.00, that is an easy decision.  Your payback on the additional $5000.00 is only 10 years and you will have another 10 years of savings to put in your pocket. 

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    LRCCBJ
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 1,022

    The GV90 is your preferred option out of the selected group.

    Here is a thread that discusses that boiler and the fellows who deal with it every day are quite satisfied with it. Pay attention to their comments on how to install it. DO not ignore the details and the need to control the return water temperature.

    You get close to mod-con efficiency in a CI boiler that will outlast all mod-cons.

    https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/169716/opinions-weilmclain-gv90-series-boilers

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,377

    See my edit above:

    I have had customers with the original WM GV boiler.  It is cast iron and it lasts longer than the other ModCon boilers.   The GV90 is the original GV, CI boiler that has an additional secondary Heat Exchanger that increases the efficiency from the high 80% to over 90%.  That additional HX may not last as long as the CI sections but as long as the secondary HX is available to replace when there is a failure in 17 to 22 years, I would select that one.   But if your existing oil fired boiler is less than 25 years old and is operating without problems, you may want to consider keeping it and having a good tuneup and maintenance performed.   That will last a lot longer that any of the new stuff available today.   

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    LRCCBJ
  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39
    edited April 12

    our current oil boiler is about 40-50 years old, the oil tank is questionable on how many more fills before it starts to leak or breaks. That’s the reason we went to convert because having to replace the oil boiler, tank and spend $3000 a year in oil (previous owners spent that last year) and they were only 2 people. We have 4 so it would be more. It would make sense to switch to gas and might have some savings.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,950

    Yeah, it might make sense to switch to gas — but you won't save anything on fuel.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,744

    @Ghynes440 , what make and model is your present boiler? What burner is on it?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,377

    Agree with the reason to convert for your situation. The new WM GV90 would be my choice of those you were offered. There will be some savings from the $3000.00 per year. You may be pleasantly surprise with a $2000.00 per year gas bill, but I would not bet on that. I would be satisfied with a 2500.00 Gas bill and be pleasantly surprised with anything more. It all depends on the existing oil heater overall efficiency.

    Not a fan of the ModCon/Combi for a forever home! Use a separate water heater or an indirect. If I were in your shoes, the GV90 and a indirect for DHW. I like that the best because the 90+% efficient burners will be heating you home and your hot water. A very efficient design IMO

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    LRCCBJ
  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39

    our neighbor has roughly same style house, they’ve had gas for years and he said he spent around $1000 last year in gas.

    I think I will go with gv90+ an indirect tank

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,950

    Counting on your neighbour's bill is… not wise. Too many variables.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • ILikeEmOlder
    ILikeEmOlder Member Posts: 53
    edited April 12

    The rationale for switching to gas seems obvious in your situation.

    The gas boiler you choose is often much less important than the installer you choose.

    I focus on much older houses (18th and 19th century) located in the northeast. Finding good boiler installers who can service your equipment year after year are becoming harder to find (even in areas where boiler heat still rules the day).

    I strongly suggest that you put the majority of your effort into working with a plumber you can trust for the install and maintenance of your new boiler.

    In terms of the equipment, newer modcon boilers are becoming the norm in the markets I have worked and currently work in, so it remains to be seen if the more tried and true cast iron boilers will soon require “specialized” techs to maintain them, or owners who are willing to maintain their own equipment.

    Swinging hammers and fitting pipe…bringing the dream to life

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 1,022

    It really doesn't matter what he said. People lie all the time to impress.

    What is the name of the utility that supplies the gas? Be interesting to lookup the cost of gas in your area. Whether all the additional fees and taxes are stated is the big question.

    See if you can take a look at one of his bills. Get the amount of the bill and the amount of therms used for the month. We'll know immediately what he pays per therm and can directly compare it to fuel oil.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,744

    That boiler, a Weil-McLain 62 series, is built like a tank. If it were mine, I'd probably retrofit it with a Carlin EZ-Gas or Midco EC-200 gas burner.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    delcrossv
  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39

    it looks in rough shape though doesn’t it? If that was a possibility I would absolutely do that.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,744

    The coil gasket has been leaking. That may or may not be fixable, but if it is………….

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,726

    The GV90+ is a nice boiler, but rarely do I see them piped according to the manual. It's got 2 internal circulators. System and Bypass. Near boiler piping must be right.

    LRCCBJ
  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39

    Do standard gas boilers really need a stainless steel chimney liner installed?

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,744

    I'd get a licensed chimney contractor to look at it.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,726

    If the chimney is as old as the house, then of course you would want it inspected by a chimney pro. Didn't you see "The Money Pit"?

    Mad Dog_2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,377

    That old WM 62 boiler is in great shape for its age. If you can easily take the tankless coil bolts off, and replace that gasket and plate with a blank, that boiler may last longer than the GV90. Then add an indirect tank for DHW. A wire brush and a coat of paint will make that look like new. A Carlin Gas Gun will put that boiler in GAS mode and you will get the 80% combustion efficiency of a new Cast Iron gas boiler like the CGa boilers. A Gas gun in that boiler will be the real test on the price difference between heating with Gas and heating with Oil.

    If you were to look at the boiler design from the Weil McLain 62 boiler all the way up to the 66 and 68 boilers and then into the WGO boilers, there is not much difference. So getting a new boiler that has the same basic design as 50+ years ago, can't be much more efficient. Only change is the way the burner makes the fire

    Using the same boiler in the same home under the same conditions with only the burner being different. I might try that if it were my home.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    LRCCBJdelcrossv
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 17,643

    The boiler may be in great shape or maybe not. Although a gas burner conversion is a good idea even if it were mine and I could do the conversion myself I couldn't justify the expense with a boiler that age. But it's not a yes or now answer other may look at it differently

    I would run it as is and save for a new boiler. JMHO

  • Ghynes440
    Ghynes440 Member Posts: 39

    now if I were to do that, wouldn’t I still have to install a stainless steel chimney liner?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,377

    There are no crystal balls for boiler integrity.  I was saying that if I had the chance to be in your position, I would do it as an experiment, just to see the cost of heating for the year, adjusted for actual degree day in each winter season.  Also to convert back to oil after 2 years and see if a newer oil burner might save on fuel. 

    That's just me.  And for the experiment, I would not put in the liner. (but you should if this was to be forever heater) That is because I know that there will be a new boiler in the near future, and it will be direct vented like the GV-90. You are not in the position to do experiments like that.  There is nothing in the game for you to learn what might be the best way to go.  And of course the equipment would be at wholesale cost or even second hand, removed from a customer’s home, that purchased new equipment. (there must be 15 second hand oil burners on a shelf somewhere that I was saving for parts or to rebuild and have ready for an emergency.)  The labor would also be my own time that I would chalk up to R&D.  You can do that when you own the company.

    As far as @Ghynes440 is concerned, I would still pick the GV-90 as the forever boiler for that home.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?