Foamy / Dirty Water in sight glass, Loud Panting Radiators Again

IanMac227 · March 4

Hello All,

I've posted on here before about a loud "breathing or panting" sound coming from all of my radiators (alternating whistling release and suction immediately after). I went through the whole system, making sure everything was sloped right, boiler pressuretrol setup correctly, vents on the radiators were good. The only problem I still have are the pipes immediately after the boiler not angled correctly, which I can't change right now. The mains slope correctly on either side after that initial portion.

At one point I changed and increased the venting off the mains. Now I have a mixture of new Gorton and Maid o Mist Number 1s. This seemed to help a lot for a while, there was still some noise but it wasn't enough to be disruptive. But now all of a sudden the noise is back with vengeance. I pulled all the main vents and cleaned them. They appear to be working fine, although I only confirmed that by blowing through them. I'm not sure if there is a better test.

I did notice the water in my sight glass is dirty when running and also has some foam on the top (pic below). It looks like there is some rust contamination on the top as well. Is it possible I'm making bad steam or have too much contamination? It was serviced last fall but I don't believe it was skimmed or flushed. Any help would be appreciated! We have to wear ear plugs to sleep right now unfortunately.

ethicalpaul · March 4

I don't like to see suds in the gauge glass, but that may or may not be related to your problem.

Why is the water level so low?

It's possible that your water is involved, but really only if the water level is dropping dramatically and rapidly when the boiler is steaming. That's why I ask about the water level. If your level is up where it should be then when the boiler makes steam it plunges to where it is now, that water is going into your main pipes and causing trouble.

Or maybe you are just hearing the normal sounds of a loud vent. I can't hear it from here. Have you tried a different, maybe smaller vent on your radiator to see if anything changes?

Or it could be the common occurrence of house settling having created a low spot in the supply pipe to that radiator and the steam is collapsing when it hits that cool water at the start of a call for heat.

Big Ed_4 · March 4

My first thought is the steam production is lower then needed to fill system .. I would recommend replacing the loss of supply pipe insulation before increasing firing rate ..

STEAM DOCTOR · March 4

Water is dirty. Needs a good cleaning

ChrisJ · March 4

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846664#Comment_1846664

Can you explain your thought process Ed?

EBEBRATT-Ed · March 4

Skim it and check the PH

IanMac227 · March 4

The water level does vary a bit throughout the whole cycle. The picture I took was a little bit into it, but when off the water level is slightly above halfway up the sight glass. The lowest I typically see is just above the bottom of the sight glass.

The sound seems to be coming from all the radiators. Most are 4s and 5s plus a couple 6s that are the furthest away from the boiler. Nothing has changed in that setup and everything seemed to be working great a few weeks ago like that. I can certainly try to go smaller on the bigger ones. I also cleaned all of them except a few I replaced (a few months ago).

I haven't been able to find any low spots but I will check again tonight. I haven't confirmed the pH or skimmed yet as well.

Big Ed_4 · March 4

The " breathing or panting " …. The head of steam is slipping back …

ChrisJ · March 4

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846689#Comment_1846689

All of my vents breath like this. In my system I believe it's the steam "inch worming" down the mains as the warm up. Steam pushes forward into the cool piping and condenses, sucking more steam into the space, over and over.

For now I'd concentrate on skimming your boiler and getting the water nice and clean. After that we'll see how it goes.

Do you have an accessible skim port, and do you know how to skim?

Big Ed_4 · March 4

I agree with skimming , Just thinking there is more to this story :)

ethicalpaul · March 4

The lowest I typically see is just above the bottom of the sight glass.

This should not happen, you are surging. Skimming is the prescription. Don't blame the pH. Once your water is good and staying good you can put the pH at 10 or so and be loving life with clean water.

IanMac227 · March 5

Thanks everyone. I will try to skim it this weekend and see what type of difference it makes. I've lived here less than a year so I don't know the whole history of this boiler but the tag on it says it hasn't been skimmed in 5 years. Not sure if this needs to be done more often.

ethicalpaul · March 5

No, normally you would never need to skim unless you introduced oils into the system with new piping, etc.

But skimming is easy and the right way to clear floating stuff. And you'll basically get a boiler flush for free afterward when you lower the water level back down.

mattmia2 · March 5

With the foam and age my bet would be on priming rather than surging. Try draining a good portion of the water out and adding fresh and see if the water stops foaming an exiting the boiler.

EBEBRATT-Ed · March 5

Put some of the boiler water in your wife's brand new saucepan and put it on the stove to see how it boils. That may tell you something

mattmia2 · March 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846924#Comment_1846924

Or solve your problem in other ways.

ethicalpaul · March 5

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846919#Comment_1846919

What is the difference between priming and surging? Aren't they two names for bubbles forming during boiling and then that bubbly water exiting the boiler with the steam?

mattmia2 · March 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846926#Comment_1846926

Surging is the steam violently exiting the surface of the water because something like a layer of oil is blocking its exit usually taking slugs of water with it. Priming is the water forming a foam with the steam and that foam being pushed in to the mains.

EBEBRATT-Ed · March 6

Surging is usually oil or dirt and muck

Priming is usually caused by PH

Big Ed_4 · March 6

I wonder if any " skimming n the can " like Squick was added to the system .. Could any cause foaming ?

mattmia2 · March 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846938#Comment_1846938

yes, very much so

pedmec · March 6

Your water quality is terrible. You can't make quality steam with dirty water. Flush the boiler and then refill. Don't worry about adding fresh water. Its only a one time thing.

ethicalpaul · March 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846928#Comment_1846928

you guys haven’t watched my video where I put oil in my boiler. There are no slugs of water, there is just like similar to when milk boils over on the stove

Has anyone seen a slug of water? Where does the idea come from? Honest question!

or the one where I dumped in way too much 8-way with zero surging or priming

Squick doesn’t seem to cause surging. It’s mostly that bituminous earth powder that ties up any oils.

Cutting oil added to boiler:

mattmia2 · March 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846954#Comment_1846954

the episode of the galloping gourmet where he is heating water with lard on top of it and it blow up in his face. when i have tried to melt butter in the microwave too quickly.

we have seen people with lots of additive i their boiler with the water leaving the boiler that stopped doing that when they drained it out and put fresh water in the boiler.

ethicalpaul · March 6

Thanks. Yes, if you put additive into dirty water it can surge. But at least 8-way, if you put it into clean water, it causes no harm, even way too much

ethicalpaul · March 6

https://forum.heatinghelp.com/discussion/comment/1846934#Comment_1846934

Thanks Ed. If we accept those definitions, what is the difference between them as far as behavior? Do they both result in a significant water line drop? Do they both cause water to enter the mains and possibly radiator runouts?

This article has a lot of these terms, but they all seem to be saying the same thing to me: https://www.lenntech.com/applications/process/boiler/foaming-priming.htm

Priming, Surging, Carryover, Foaming, Wet Steam, they all seem to be saying the same thing—a reduction in surface tension of the water that allows bubbles to form and be carried along with the steam into the main, taking a lot of water out of the boiler.

This article has even more terms including Churning and Percolating! https://calray.nyc/what-is-surging-in-a-boiler-and-why-is-it-dangerous/#:~:text=Boiler%20surging%20is%20sometimes%20also,boiler%20surging%20is%20also%20noisy.

I especially like that one because I have expressed surging in terms of a coffee percolator that purposely carries water up a tube to pour over the coffee grounds repeatedly. Imagine a coffee percolator being an overfired boiler with zero header height.

Also interestingly, this article, and others I have seen blame LOW pH for surging! Here on this forum people think high pH causes it, which I have not been able to repeat experimentally.

However, there are other causes of boiler surging as well:
Oil leaks that infiltrate the boiler water
Lack of filtration on the water supply
Low water pH (acidic) due to failure to treat boiler water

techforlife · March 7

Skim first and ask questions later. It's only sensible.

Foamy / Dirty Water in sight glass, Loud Panting Radiators Again

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