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persistent air in hydronic heat pipes

kingr81
kingr81 Member Posts: 26

For reasons I will spare you the details of, I have to figure this issue out myself after paying a lot of money for 4 plumbers to come and provide no advancement. If you are reading this in RI, please contact me for this job! I have no experience with these things, but have been trying to educate myself over the last week, so hopefully my descriptions here will be intelligible.

Gas fed boiler installed about 2.5 yrs. ago. I noticed issues with hot water this summer and circulator pump was replaced (with a different brand/model), not by original boiler installer because he was not returning calls. Everything was fine for a few months, until the first heat zone call, when I heard a loud whooshing noise (like a burst of compressed air being released) which gave one sudden pulsing bang to the pipes and the sound of gurgling water through the pipes after. That is what typically happens now when a zone call opens a zone valve. This never happened before the installation of that pump. Two people have successfully purged it (the original installer during install and someone shortly after who worked on some rotten pipe sections that were found) and so it seems possible to do so, but I was not around at the time they did it and so I don't know how they succeeded.

(no cap on boiler auto air vent b/c one of the plumbers verified that it was loose then dropped it into the boiler, so need to buy new one)

I don't think it is a leak because system when shut off will hold pressure steadily for the 10 hours that I tested it, and I have checked for water anywhere that might appear, although there are areas behind drywall in the finished basement that I could not see.

I learned how and attempted to purge it myself a few days ago. The plumbers here were not letting each zone run very long and were opening up multiple zones at once, so I wondered if doing it more methodically and longer would help. I did the following:

-turned off system and let cool for 1 hour

-shut off the valve at the purge point (yellow handles in pics below) to block flow to the return of the boiler; paid attention to the direction of the T on the bolt on the side of it so that it was open from above (as opposed to open from below if the handle is turned the other way, if I understand this correctly)

-manually opened zone valve, then opened purge spout with hose attached (and run to drain at washing machine)

The fill water comes in, but with the purge spout completely open, there is only 4 psi registering on the meter. All of the videos I've seen show more pressure during the purge and the ability to use the manual override (or fast fill) on the water feed PRV to push it to 20/25, being sure to stay below 30. I can only build up to about 20 psi by partially opening the purge spout and then using the fast fill to get more pressure. The plumbers before opened the purge spout completely and did not build up pressure and I never heard air come out of the system. When I did it this way, I did hear air come out and let it run for about 10 minutes per zone, well past the time of not hearing air come out. I did zones 3 (indirect water heater), 2 (finished basement), 1 (main floor) individually and paid attention to isolate each side of the split loop on zone 1.

However, still having the same issue. Here are a few of my HYPOTHESES:

1) Maybe it is necessary, after purging the zones, to then move the cutoff valve at the purge point (in pics above) to the opposite direction, aligning the T on the nut to allow flow from below and to then open the purge point valve and/or the drain valve at the bottom of the boiler. Maybe air was left in there. After I purged and then turned on the system, I heard air in the circulator pump as soon as it turned on after the first zone call. If I understand correctly, where the feed is coming in would form the open loop for purging starting there and ending at the hose, leaving the pipe below it unpurged. Am I right about this?

2) The feed PRV is maybe bad? However, when filling the system again, it does its job of stopping it at 15 psi. The overide lever does work when the system is closed and will increase pressure in the system, so it at least works for that. But could a PRV malfunction cause not enough feed water to enter the system during purging? I've checked the water pressure at a couple of spouts and am getting 60psi there and not much difference between hot and cold water flow at faucets upstairs (noting this because the boiler feed also feeds the potable water in the indirect water heater).

3) Something to do with the expansion tank? I checked the pressure there with system pressure at 0 and the tank was at the pre-charge of 12psi. Feed PRV valve is set at 15. Should they be equal? Would this contribute to at least the pressure of the air slamming through the system? When filling the system cold, the PRV stops it at 15 psi. Then, over a minute or so, it creeps up to 17. With the system running hot, it gets up to 20. Leaving the system not running overnight, it holds at18. When a zone valve opens and the rush of air is heard, the needle on the gauge jumps quickly to 22/23, goes down to about 18, then settles at 20 (this all happening within about 1 second).

4) Perhaps system is sucking in air due to it being piped so that the circulator is pumping toward, rather than away from, the expansion tank, causing air to get sucked into the air separator on the top of the expansion tank (or perhaps into the vent at the boiler) due to a negative pressure. This seems unlikely to me because the system worked fine until the replacement of the circulator pump. Maybe this circulator pump (Grundfos UPS15-58FRC) is stronger (although it is at the low setting now) than the previously used Taco007e, which causes this? Below are the charts for them (Grundfos first, then Taco007e). I honestly don't know enough to be able to tell if there is a big difference between the force caused by one or the other.

This also doesn't seem likely, though, because no air issues during the first few months after the circulator replacement when just zone 3 (hot water tank) was working. It all started when zone 1 (1st floor heat) opened for the first time in October. It seems that this is the least likely explanation for what is happening. Related to this--could air be getting sucked into the circulator pump if it was installed incorrectly? However, for the same reason as above, it seems this would have caused issues right away rather than it only starting when zone 1 came on for the first time.

5) Could the air separator have gone bad? It seems it should be removing this air if it is working correctly based on the distributor's demo videos I have seen of the unit on youtube. Or, located where it is in relation to the circulator pump, maybe it has never done anything but didn't need to because the system was purged properly. I checked and the port where air should come out has the screw turned loose so it should be open.

6) Another idea is that maybe the installer and other plumber after who did purge it successfully soon after it was installed were using some method to increase the water pressure through the system (like a pump of some sort) that I didn't see because I wasn't around. Certainly these recent plumbers have not been using any means of building the pressure in there up to 20. Any advice on doing something along these lines would be helpful. Maybe when I am purging doing what I described above, it is better to get the pressure from more water running through rather than building it up by decreasing the size of its exit at the purge spout.

If you've made it this far, thank you immensely in advance for any advice. I'm concerned these surges are putting pressure on piping joints, the sound is shocking and annoying, and air in the system is bad regarding corrosion and efficiency for sure.

Comments

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,205

    Does your new circulator have an IFC? It may be part if the model number

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    kcopp
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,555

    If you hear air in the pipes the circ must be working. And if that air passes through the air sep it should remove it within an hour or so. Looks like a Taco air sep? Like this?

    Make sure the vent is open. And yes they can plug up from time to time.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    It is this part, mentions integral check valve, but I don't see anything about IFC:

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Grundfos-59896343-UPS15-58FRC-3-Speed-Rotated-Flanged-Circulator-Pump-1-25-HP-115-volt?utm_source=bingad&utm_medium=Shopping_Heating&utm_campaign=Shopping_X_Heating_X_SSC_Class%20A&utm_campaignid=590264920&utm_adgroupid=1234752629447945&utm_targetid=pla-4580771616014069&utm_product_id=59896343&utm_matchtype=e&utm_keyword=default&utm_adtype=&utm_adgroup=Hydronic%20System%20Components_X_X_X&utm_searchquery=Grundfos%20UPS15-58FRC&utm_category=Heating&msclkid=26b0466e06171b91b51221cb306acd8c

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Yes, that is the one and I verified the vent is open. So maybe I need to look into getting that replaced. Based on its location, I can't open it up and look into it.

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    What do you guys think about hypothesis 1 re: purging from boiler section after zones are done. Is that usually done? It is not something I have seen people do in videos, but due to the way my system is piped, maybe it is necessary?

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Also, based on the way it is piped (with circulator pumping toward expansion tank rather than away), could the air separator work anyway in that arrangement?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,205
    edited February 7

    IFC = Internal Flow Check

    That is the problem.

    Here is the pictures of your system put together

    This is the best I could determine about the pipe design from that photo

    I have included only the closed system parts that are important. The feed water and Hot and Cold potable water are not included. With the Photo removed you can clearly see the zone valves and the check valve in the circulator pump in relation to the expansion tank. The expansion tank must be in communication with all the pipes that have water in the closed system. When the valves are closed the water on the other side of the closed valve must communicate with the expansion tank. That is because the water on the other side of the zone valve will cool off. As the water cools off it will contract (take up less space, less volume). The expansion tank has that extra water in it from when the water expanded. So that shrinking water in the pipes must communicate to that water in the expansion tank so all the pressures in the system will be balanced.

    In this next illustration, the only water in the system that is communicating with the expansion tank is faded out. all the water that is not faded out in the tank heat exchanger and the radiators can not communicate with the expansion tank.

    As the water in those pipes cool off and starts to contract (shrink), the check valve and closed zone valves will not let the expansion tank water take up. that space, so the pressure in those sections of pipe will drop. It may drop so much that the water will actually become lower that atmospheric pressure. Actually become negative pressure (also known as a vacuum).

    When a zone valve opens all that pressure difference is instantly equalized with a loud bang as the expansion tank water rushes into the pipes that are at the lower pressure.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    Schnay
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,205
    edited February 6

    The reason your system operated without the noise when only the water heater zone was operating: There must have been some air left in the heating zone pipes. That air in those pipes acted as the expansion tank air cushion. Once you started using the heat, the air in those pipes was purged out. Now you have no air cushion on the opposite of the zone valves and check valve in the pump.

    The correct fix is to remove the check valve from the pump. You need to remove the pump from the flanges to get to the check valve to remove it

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    bjohnhykcopp
  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Thanks for that info—it makes sense. Would it be ideal to reinstall the Taco007e since it has IFC? I don't mind paying a bit more for the part if it will do a better job in my system, since I'll have to drain anyway to remove the Grundfos.

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Also, would you mind explaining what IFC does to prevent the problem as it is occurring now? Very interested in how that works.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,555

    IFC is internal check valve. You want it out of the pump in your application.

    Or move the expansion tank

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Okay, so since the 007e does have IFC, maybe the installer removed it before his installation then and there would be no benefit to going back to the 007e, correct?

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26
    edited February 7

    One more thing to mention in case it matters—there are no flow check valves in the system. I have to turn the two white shutoff valves you see on the left corner of the photo in order to avoid heat crawl through the pipes in the summer from the zone 3 hot water tank functioning. Those shutoff valves are both part of zone 1 and serve to isolate each split loop in that zone during purging.

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Just thought of this as well—with the internal check valve presumably still in the pump and causing the issue Ed described, does that stop the air separator from doing its job properly? There is definitely air in the system right now as the gurgling water sound during operation seems to indicate this and my understanding is that the air separator should have removed this by now.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,205

    Your air separator is working just fine. The extreme low pressure that is happening after each heating cycle is drawing air out of suspension at a rate that is unusual in a hydronic closed system. Once you get that check valve out of the system, you will find that the system will work just fine.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26
    edited February 7

    Sounds good and thanks so much for this help. Regarding purging, would you mind telling me if I am right about the purging procedure I outlined in the hypothesis 1 in the original post—the last step about purging below the purge point by reversing the cutoff valve on the purge valve and opening the boiler spout at the bottom. Is this necessary? I want to get this right as I will be purging after doing the operation on the circulator.

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 10,205
    edited February 7

    Do you still have the Taco 007e pump? Look to see if the white check valve is inside the discharge opening. (that would be the side that the arrow on the pump is point to). If it is then it may be stuck open so that there really ins't a check valve at all. Or are you thinking of purchasing a new 007e? Don't bother purchasing a different circulator. The one you have is just fine

    Why do some systems need check valves you ask? there are lots of reasons but the first one that I came across back in 1974 is a boiler that is equipped with a tankless coil for DHW. Those boilers needed to maintain 160° water in the boiler so the coil in the boiler could make hot water for the shower and washing machine and all the other things you use hot water for. In the summer, if you did not have a flow control valve in the supply pipe of the boiler, that 160° boiler water would find its way into the radiators and the cols water from the radiators would find it way back to the boiler. The Flow Control valves were designed to do that to keep the hot water in the boiler. later in the 1990s and 2000s someone at the circulator companies thought it would be a good idea to hide the flow control valve inside the circulator since many boiler installers were starting to put the circulator pump on the supply side of the system.

    There are other reasons you might not want the water to flow backwards in a circulator that is off while other circulators in the system are operating. So now you need to know when to and when not to get IFC circulators. In your case, you can't have a flow check in the circulator.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 24,555

    If the air sep is in fact working properly all air, free air, entrained, dissolved, suspended will be driven out. The temperature increase from the boiler does help with that. Within days , o2 at the molecular level will contact ferrous metals and oxidize (rust) it and be consumed in the process. You have “dead” water starved of o2

    I still see a path from the indirect to allow ghost flow into the heat zones , up the return side

    Sounds like you have experienced that already ?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    I checked the 007e that stopped working and there is no white check valve in there. Will hopefully have time tomorrow to open the current Grundfos and report back here as to whether it is there or not a check valve in there. Will remove it if so.

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    Yes, I believe so. Re: air sep, perhaps that is not working correctly in conjunction with the internal check valve issue Ed is describing? Wondering why still air in the system…

  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,607

    There's an air scoop in the block that also has an air eliminator. Air should be non existent if you do what was recommended.

  • kingr81
    kingr81 Member Posts: 26

    I removed the check valve and purged the system—so far, about 4 hours later, everything seems back to normal. I can't thank you all enough! We have paid 4 plumbers to come here for this, and none even thought of this, not even the person who installed this replacement circulator pump. I decided to educate myself on how this worked to troubleshoot and ask meaningful questions, I come on here, and 10 minutes later—> a problem plaguing me for 4 months is resolved. All of my gratitude and best wishes to those who help people as you all do.

    EdTheHeaterManbjohnhy