Lochinvar KHB285N - Oversized and seeking efficiency / optimization advice
I have a relatively new Lochinvar KHB285N that is oversized and while I am not intending to make any changes to the physical setup at this point, I am seeking advice on how I can use the array of controls to my advantage to prevent short cycling and make the system as efficient as possible. The boiler is about 3 years old and replaced a similar model (was in a rush to get heat), so no calculations were ever made.
Background & Physical Setup: The house (including basement) is around 4000sqft, separated into 3 zones with DHW that has priority. Two of the zones have forced air and the other zone (basement) has baseboard radiators. The boiler is looped primary/secondary with zone circulators. The house is 100 years old and the main level has extreme heat loss. We are talking a few original lead windows and little/poor insulation. The final point worth mentioning is that we have multiple people living and working at home full-time so we are rarely in a situation where the entire house needs to go from 0 to 100 very quickly. The basement gets turned off at night, but the main levels are more about maintaining. We do have NEST thermostats we can always control remotely, if needed.
The problem: Given the fact that the boiler is probably oversized, I am getting a bit more cycling than I would like, especially during new calls and when the load is decreasing (1 or 2 of the 3 zones turning off). While zones do overlap on and off, it is very common for only 1 zone to be running at a time. In general, the system might modulate well at a constant temp for a few minutes at 10%, but then might decide to increase the flame dramatically, at which point the temperature rises pretty fast and usually touches or comes within 1 degree of the high limit – and occasionally will hit the high limit and cycle. We do have the outdoor reset enabled. All the other controls are pretty much set-up with the factory defaults (185 max SH setpoint with 10 offset). Again, it often fluctuates every few min up to 194 before modulating back down to 170ish, occasionally overshooting.
I understand that heating coils require high temps, but why are the factory default temperatures set so high to begin with? I read an article that condensing boilers should not be set so high to achieve 95% efficiency and that you need the return temperatures to be 140F or less to fully condense.
I’m not qualified to do handy work myself, but I’ve recently taken interest in this and I want to try to make the best out of my current situation. I am not looking to make any dramatic changes to the plumbing or add any additional equipment (buffers, etc). I understand the primary tools I have at my disposal at this point are features like ramp delay to limit the output, modulation to limit the speed at which the system modulates, and temperature/offset adjustments. My gut tells me that I should start lowering the SH setpoints down and limiting the output, but I am looking for guidance based on what I've described.
Are there any Lochinvar efficiency experts in the southern New York area? There are a lot of great HVAC technicians that do great work and can install a high efficiency boiler and follow the manual to speculation, but none of them seem to care about tweaking the controls to make the systems anywhere remotely close to 90 or 95% efficiency. Given my situation, I’d like to do what I can to both balance efficiency while prolonging the life of the boiler as much as possible. And advice would be appreciated! Thank you!
Comments
-
First of all, get rid of the Nest. It’s the worst possible choice for Hydronic systems and modulating equipment.
Second, use the ramp delay as you mentioned.
Third, do an accurate Manual J heat loss calculation. Your boiler is probably almost double the size that it needs to be. Once you know the actual heat loss, limit the boiler’s firing rate to match that.
Fourth, connect the outdoor sensor and work on adjusting the ODR curve. Fan coils and fin tube baseboards require the highest water temperatures most of the time. I’d start with 180* maximum and 120* minimum and work it from there. If that curve gives sufficient heat, then try adjusting the top number down 5* at a time until it just keeps up with heating the house. You may also wanna try slowing the AHUs fan speed down one step at a time.
Using ODR will cause the boiler to cycle more, but it will raise the efficiency.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
Thank you for the reply! This makes sense and is more or less what I expected.
I do keep the Nest on a rigid schedule and keep all "learning" features off most of the time. I like having it so I can see what is going on from my phone or if I am not home and want to occasionally adjust the temperature. There are probably better remote systems, as you mention.
Sadly, I didn't know any better until recently and nobody seemed to want to inform me regarding the boiler size. I was replacing a unit that was in the house before I bought it and the company just asked if I "wanted the same one" and it was in the dead of winter when we had no heat so I was under pressure to make a decision. This sounds like it happens a lot.
0 -
A Honeywell T6 WiFi or TR10 would be a much better choice if you want remote monitoring and control; however, any setback of the thermostat is counter productive to the logic of the boiler and will actually use more energy unless it’s for several days.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.0 -
When you say setbacks, are you only referring to those controlled by smart learning? I would think that programmatically adjusting the thermostat down 5* every night for 11 hours on an unoccupied zone would provide savings? Or are you saying that is not true?
0 -
Not with modulating equipment. The negligible (if any) savings that might be there are wiped out by the structure having to recover and the boiler going to full fire, instead of modulating, to make up the sudden large load imposed upon it.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
Look at all the functions the control has. You can lock the boiler down to as low as 20%. Ramp delay, anti cycling, boost, ODR can all be configured to optimize that boiler. The manual does a good job of explaining those, and that control is very easy to navigate.
I believe you will find some videos at the Lockinvar site in the. “Tool Box”
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
This is all helpful and I think I am getting comfortable enough with concepts to try to change these settings on my own (which I've never done). Some questions which will help me understand these functions a little better:
Offset - default is 10. Is there any reason to increase this? It seems that after periods of steadiness, the system occasionally and eventually modulates up towards the high limit and max Offset setting (sometimes overshooting). Assuming the offset + SH setpoint is lower than the high limit shut down, is there any benefit to increasing this to 15 or more to give it more time to adjust? Does it tend to always creep up to the max offset or is this merely a symptom of too much heat being produced and not enough load / flow?
Ramp Delay - if you only set 3 intervals (for example), does the 3rd interval become the final setting? Is there any methodology or logic behind choosing intervals? i.e., is it good to start off really low and climb up every 1-2 minutes or is it better to fire a new call strong and ramp down? Or is it best to just set a single max output?
Modulation - I understand this is often used with redundant heating methods, but is there any reason to adjust this from 100? I do feel like it sometimes it modulates up too quickly. There is not a lot of literature on this feature.
Manual J - It doesn't seem like anyone wants to do a Manual J calc unless they are going to install a new system for you (even if willing to pay). I see services online that do this by using your floor plans and asking questions, but I don't think that will work well for my 100 year old home. So until I find someone, I might have to take some educated guesses. 65-75% flame is the zone where I start to see real temperature increase up to and past 185*. Does that have any anything to do with what might be a good output limit to use as a guestimate until I figure out an accurate Manual J calc? Or do you suggest limiting down by 5-10 until the boiler seems to have less frequent cycling / more stable modulation?
Thank you!
0 -
in ramp delay, just put 0 in the step if you don’t want to use it.
The modulation refers to the % at the steps.
I tried step 1 at 20% for 10 minutes, step two 30% for 10 minutes, etc. up to 100% 40 minutes later.
There is no rhythm or reason for the time or %.It’s helps eliminate the boiler ramping to 100% on light load conditions. The longer you keep it at a low % the more efficient it runs.
However you also don’t want to wait an hour to ramp 100% if the room or structure is not heating quickly enough.
Back in the early mod con days none of these options existed. Over the years these features were an answer to what installers were asking for.
Probably at some point the choices and functions overwhelmed folks that are not doing this full time and looking to customize the boilers to the different job requirements.
I think all the boiler brands have a no frills control for price point boilers, and all the bells and whistles on the more expensive models.
The Con X Us is a nice feature so you don’t need to be at the boiler to see how the system is performing. Monitor and adjust while you watch Yellowstone🧐
Think of it as options on a car. Do you like or want cooled seats, self dimming mirrors, 360 cameras, monitors on the back of headrests, etc, etc.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
look for Slantfin heat loss app on iOS or Android store. Free app, do a calc for each zones heated area. Will get you fairly close.
Good luck
0 -
Thanks all.
With regards to what many people call the ultimate goal of mod/con boilers - keeping it running for as long as possible with the lowest modulation and heat temp… but what about air handlers? that means that they would be going 24/7. Surely that is not efficient?
0 -
BUFFER TANK !
You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
732-751-1560
Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
Rich McGrath 732-581-38331 -
You’re not gonna have the perfect hydronic system using AHUs. However, you can have an efficient one.
If your AHUs have ECMs (electronically commutated motors), they use substantially less electricity than standard PSC motors and running the blowers for longer periods is not that expensive.
You should also use the lowest speed necessary to heat the house.
Bob Boan
You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.1 -
I implemented ramp delay starting at 30%, gradually increasing up to 60%. 40% seems to be where the temperature starts to increase slowly with 1 zone calling for heat (~45% can steadily increase the outlet temp with 2 zones running). So, it seems 40-45% is enough to get the outlet up to 180+ degrees within a few minutes and keep the entire house very comfortable. I think I can probably cap the ramp at 50% ultimately, but I want to watch it a bit longer.
What I don't understand is why with a 180* SP, it allows the outlet to creep up to 193* before decreasing the modulation in a meaningful way. I think I've reduced or eliminated high limit cycles, but I don't get why it allows it to get that hot and doesn't modulate back down quicker. The offset is currently at 10. At the other end of the spectrum, once it reached 193, it eventually modulates down and allows the outlet to drop to as low as 168 before ramping back up again to as high as 193. And repeat. Does this sound like normal operation? Should I decrease the offset? Is there anything else I can do to try to keep the temperature a bit more consistent?
0 -
I think I realized it has to do with the system temperature sensor and possibly its location, not the outlet temperature. I guess the system temperature is set to 180 with 10 offset, but the outlet temp is allowed to go higher than this summation to make it happen.
0 -
You may want to try adjusting/Lowering the »»» MOD FACTOR«««.
This will adjust how fast your boiler responds and may keep it from short cycling 😐️..
0 -
Hello HR..
We have 37 ConXus Modules interfaced and have yet to have one that has not had any issues..😓
Some just decide to turn off the DHW production, Some do not show the modulation even while the boiler is fired up, Some just decide to change the outdoor reset curve,Some do not show when circs are operating. Some just decide to disconnect from the LAN so we renamed them Dis-conX-Us
On the last one we installed we remotely changed the ramp delay and the mod factor which acually TURNED THE BOILER OFF !. I had to drive all the way up to Blue River to turn it back on otherwise the house would have Frozen.
Lochinvar has given us Lip service for about 4 years now !
Hope your ConXus is working fine for you.
Richard.
0 -
Too bad you don’t know the local rep that could go to bat for you?
It seems with that many issues you would just disconnect them all?
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
As you may know the local Rep is Shamrock Sales in Denver.
They are not the only rep that has had discussions with Lochinvar about this Issue..
As for disconnecting them: My customers paid for these interfaces and relie on this feature working …Disconnecting these units will instill uncertainty in the Lochinvar product line!
Is Lochinvar going to reimburse us for all of these units plus labor while tarnishing their reputation ?
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.5K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 96 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.5K Gas Heating
- 101 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.5K Oil Heating
- 64 Pipe Deterioration
- 929 Plumbing
- 6.1K Radiant Heating
- 384 Solar
- 15.1K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 48 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements