HTP Pioneer Versaflame E03 code with cascading setup
I bought a monstrosity of a house/commercial space and inherited a HTP Pioneer/Versaflame setup. NO one around me knows anything about this, the closest place is 1.5 hours away and they do not service my area. The setup is technically cascaded but I am getting E03 on the primary boiler. I have turned off the cascading but changing 23 to 0 in the boilers setup which makes the error go away. But I have two boilers and they are supposed to switch between the two and I would like to take advantage of that.
I would be happy to just replace the system sensor, but I cannot find one anywhere. I have seen it called a system sensor and a system pipe sensor. But beyond that cannot find anything anywhere. On the HTP website or otherwise.
Beyond that I am concerned because my pressure portion of my pressure / temperature sensor on my pipe is always super low. It sometimes goes up, but it doesn't always. I still have the old coal furnace installed and it is acting as a water tank for the whole system and the pressure on it is just fine. I have tried to remove the air from the tank but I am not sure if I missing something or not. There is some minor gurgling going on with it, but nothing too drastic. And no matter how much I switch between the two pumps nothing ever happens there.
I have never lived anywhere with snow before this house, so all of this is very new to me. Happy to take some picutres of the setup if that makes it easier to help me figure out what I need to get here. Any suggestions or help is greatly appreciated here!
Thanks,
Fred
Comments
-
Hi Fred, provide pictures pls. Give us one of the boiler ID plate/part number if you can find it. Along with several of the boiler and piping from a few feet back. Be sure to give us pictures of the old boiler as well.
Regarding low system pressure, you should have a expansion tank hanging or connected to pipes around the boiler. Please be sure to include photos of that.
0 -
@HeatingHelp.com error post please delete
0 -
Of course now that it is 10 degrees outside one of my pumps died. Its a B&G and from the looks of it not cheap. lol. Guess we will see how that turns out. Either way here are the photos I have.
Hopefully you can read it, but this is t he plate from my coal furnace.
Here is my pressure gauge on the coal furnace. It was at 13 last night. This morning I found out a pump died on me so not sure if that is part of the issue or not.
This is the first pipe that goes from the water storage is the coal furnace to the two HTP in the other room.
This is the first pipe that comes FROM the HTP and goes out to the radiators.
This is the next pipe that goes to the HTP boilers, the big iron one coming from the top of the coal boiler. Behind it with the 3/4 copper pipe is the inlet and what you cannot see here is one of those low pressure valves that lift up manually and you can fill the system up with more water when the pressure is low. Not quite sure what those red things are (are they air removal thingies?), but we do have a combination of copper for baseboard heaters and iron pipes for radiators. So I am sure that somehow those go out to baseboard heaters and probably to the largest area which is about 6400 sqft in total.
I guess you can see the low-pressure valve in this photo here. It goes into one of the return pipes from the one pump that broke on me today (it was making some noise, I was hoping oiling it would fix it, but it didn't help). It is really hard to say what most of that is, but I am sure some of it is a return to the radiators and some of it is pulling in from the radiators.
This is the next room. You can see my pressure/temperature gauge there that I am worried about and the first of two pressure tanks at the top there. The huge valve is coming from the first pipe in my second photo
This is an underneath photo but that valve is the second pipe coming from the coal furnance. You can see my system sensor zip tied to the return pipe there. You can also see my second pressure tank there in the very back.
This is the piping going to the secondary furnace.
Here is a picture of the details for the furnace.
This is a closeup of my pressure / temperature gauge.
This is my pump that just died on me. It is not looking cheap when I find it online. We will see what the local guys do to me.
0 -
How did the pump break? Does the motor turn? If so it may be just the spring coupler broke, those are cheap and easy to replace.
Also I going to guess that pump is way oversize for a old coal fired conversion system. A Taco 015 would would fine. You would just need to replace the mounting flanges along with the pump.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Taco-Radiant-Heating-3-Speed-Circulator-Pump/1000194485
1 -
Well, it turns out I just forgot to turn that switch back on last night. I have five pumps and the building is 13000 square feet. That pump and there is one larger pump that go out to the radiators. The three taco pumps I have all work with the newer baseboard heaters that I have honestly.
0 -
I am honestly much more worried about the low pressure coming out of the boilers. Not sure what to do about that or how to fix it. Any guidance there would be seriously appreciated. Outside of also telling me how to fix that System Sensor.
0 -
- It may be you just need to add water to bring system up to operation pressure of 15-20 PSI.
- I’m think the ceiling hung tank is leftover from the old boiler and you have a dedicated expansion tank for the Pioneer. I see airbleeder on top of boiler which is not compatible with old tank type which uses air captured from system to build an air cushion at top of tank. Can you look around the HTP boiler to see if you have a bladder tank similar to the grey tank in this picture?
- look for the fill valve, it will be connected to the domestic water supply. You can see the fill valve with regulator in the center of the picture below.
The standard Pioneer cascade configuration piping with expansion tank and fill valve is shown below
0 -
can you post pictures of the system from further back so we get a better idea of the overall layout?
I see two Pioneer units, are those configured to use the old boiler as a buffer tank from which the red B&G circulate water through the radiators?0 -
Where are you at Fred and what suppliers are around you ?
You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
732-751-1560
Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
Rich McGrath 732-581-38330 -
You have Pioneers , Versa Flame was the Pioneer w/ a FPHX that made DHW also , HTP used one manual for the both .
See pages 49 - 50 here . You may need the clip on sensor that would go on the common supply after the 2 units piping arrangement meets . These really work best when piped 2 pipe reverse return . https://htproducts.com/literature/lp-325_020317.pdfYou didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
732-751-1560
Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
Rich McGrath 732-581-38331 -
I do not have a bladder tank like the one you show. The water intake into the system is in picture six and it feeds directly into one of the return lines before a pump there (the one I forgot to turn on). I think the water is so hard that it is potentially time to replace it because this year our water bill has been much lower than normal this time of year. But if I pull that lever up it will put water in the system. It goes directly into the huge coal furnace and that pressure builds up a lot, but not so much on the output from the two gas boilers in the other room.
This installation is very unique and the old man who had it installed and the installer fought over it because it was highly unusual. I will keep trying to put more water in there. Is there anything I can do to help get the pressure over to the two HTP boilers from that tank? How do those bleeder valves on top of the tank work? Unfortunately, my over-pressure release valve has gotten stuck on the old coal boiler, and it is something else that needs to be replaced I am sure. Our water here is terrible. I need to figure out something to do to help clean the water up before it gets to the system to be fair.
0 -
Thank you so much! This is exactly the part I am looking for!
0 -
I am in Johnstown PA. If anyone is brave enough to come out this summer and help me get this thing in tip top shape I am willing to make it worth your travel time!
0 -
in your shoes, this winter I’d replace the sensor to get the Pioneers operating in cascade mode, disconnect the old ceiling tanks and pipe in two #30 expansion tanks like I showed you above. Adding the fill line, pressure regulator as modern expansion tank with the Pioneers would be a simple job.
No reason to have the old boiler in the mix; if possible I’d configure the two pioneer modcon pipes directly into the radiant circuits just like the Pioneer diagram above. May be pretty simple if you disconnect and pipe around the old boiler and leave in place for now.
Plan on a complete reconfiguration in the summer.What is your level of skill related to plumbing? Do you plan to contract this work out? If so I’d replace the two pioneers at the same time with new ModCon boilers the local guys is most experienced with.
Personally, I’d do the work myself with the exception of having the asbestos abated and have riggers break up and remove the old boiler to free up the space. But then I’m an engineer and don’t have any sense!🤣1 -
Which company installed the Pioneers? That’s where I’d start. Unless hooking up to old boiler was their idea. 🫨
0 -
In PA we have deregulated energy, but unfortunately when there is a COOP you don't get choice. Literally two miles away the cost of natural gas is 1/2 the cost of what I pay. It is very frustrating. So my natural gas bill is over $1000/mo during the winter months right now, which if they had the same prices as Peoples then it would be way less daunting to keep running Natural Gas. I am seriously thinking about just going back to coal which I can guarantee is significantly cheaper, even if it is way more labor intensive to keep it running. For some reason the old coal furnace is still tied into the hot water heating system as well (even though it is only running 1/2" through it) so it screws up the water pressure and takes already hard water and just puts more rust in there. So I know I would at least like to get that out of the way.
I have a bunch of PEX and this house is OLD. So I would like to get rid of the all the current plumbing and replace it with that to be fair. Was thinking about doing radiant floor where the current radiators are, at least in the show room areas where it is easy to get to the floors on the second floor. I notice a huge difference when running that big iron pipe for the radiators compared to the 3/4 copper for the baseboard heaters. Not sure if it is just more effient carrier of heat. I just look at the cost of materials for baseboard and it is about $6k without all the accoutriments. I am just not sure if I trust myself with all the soldering for them myself.
Either way we will see how it goes.
So they were complaining it was cold again last night so I went down there to look. I did put more water in the tank as you had mentioned and not change on the guage by the boilers. Thinking it was the pressure again I was down there and lightly tapping on the glass for the gauge and for some reason I turned it counter clockwise and the needle shot up to the same pressure as what was on the coal boiler. So somehow that guage was off because of how tight it was in there. Either way that was good. But their radiators were still not warming up. So I got out my electrical tester. For each of the boxes that controls the pump from the thermostat there is a light switch to help make it easier to maintain everything. Well power was going into that switch but it was not going out of the switch no matter where it was. So I replaced the light switch and low and behold that pump started working again. While I was pulling the switch out of the box the pump came on and went right back off a few times, so it just had a really spotty connection. That switch was from the 70's/80's era so it had a good life. Either way they had to turn the thermostat down this morning because it was hot up there. Hopefully everything is moving along in a good direction.
Either way I seriously appreciate everyones time and attention here! I still have a ton to learn about these systems but they are super cool and very interesting for sure! Going to carve out the time to watch the video training I found on here. Can't think you guys enough. If you ever need some technology support happy to pay it back that way! lol.
I called them out one time and this is literally the only system they installed like it. The guy who installed it came out and he brought three other guys with him. Those three guys started tearing into these things and had no idea what they were doing. I mean these are maintenance free boilers, but you definitely need to maintain everything else around it. After that is when the issues started happening for me. So I just don't trust him and ultimately they were not very helpful in the long run. Hard to find good people these days and with where I am located the options are limited.
1 -
”I called them out one time and this is literally the only system they installed like it. The guy who installed it came out and he brought three other guys with him. Those three guys started tearing into these things and had no idea what they were doing.”
Unfortunately not that uncommon. The techs need to follow Dan’s advice and keep their hands in pockets until they understand the system.
0
Categories
- All Categories
- 86.5K THE MAIN WALL
- 3.1K A-C, Heat Pumps & Refrigeration
- 53 Biomass
- 423 Carbon Monoxide Awareness
- 94 Chimneys & Flues
- 2K Domestic Hot Water
- 5.5K Gas Heating
- 101 Geothermal
- 156 Indoor-Air Quality
- 3.5K Oil Heating
- 64 Pipe Deterioration
- 927 Plumbing
- 6.1K Radiant Heating
- 383 Solar
- 15.1K Strictly Steam
- 3.3K Thermostats and Controls
- 54 Water Quality
- 41 Industry Classes
- 48 Job Opportunities
- 17 Recall Announcements