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How convoluted can it be?

Cyclist77
Cyclist77 Member Posts: 34

Wasn't sure how to title this inquiry! But hopefully got someone's attention.

As I look at options for a NG boiler I am back to looking at combi boilers. But have a question on the vent routing. As I look at the possible exit points it would require some "interesting " routing of the pvc.

Can the routing go horizontal then down and under an "I" beam then back up to horizontal?

Thanks!

Mad Dog_2

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    No

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    Intplm.GGross
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Why do you ask? Surely there must be a way to run it properly.

    Mad Dog_2
  • yellowdog
    yellowdog Member Posts: 202

    Start the venting low enough to just go under the beam. Or move the boiler to a better location for venting.

    Intplm.Mad Dog_2GGross
  • Cyclist77
    Cyclist77 Member Posts: 34

    As for location, my first thought was to locate it as close to the manifolds as possible. Trying to "preserve " that side of the basement ceiling in case of finishing it out.

    I didn't think it could be manipulated but wanted to make sure.

    So will get downstairs and put my thinking cap on!

    Thanks!

    Mad Dog_2
  • Grallert
    Grallert Member Posts: 829

    The installation manual will tell you how long you can run your vent and what the equivalent length any fittings are equal to. As well as what can and can't be done venting wise.

    Miss Hall's School service mechanic, greenhouse manager, teacher, dog walker and designated driver

  • Cyclist77
    Cyclist77 Member Posts: 34

    Is there "general " spec for where the venting can be located in reference to windows? Without going through each manufacturer's manual?

  • Cyclist77
    Cyclist77 Member Posts: 34

    I was just looking at Lochinvar. I think after reading through the specs I have an idea where I can mount it.!

    Another question. Concentric vent. What is the length of one of these?

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,597

    With Mod Cons and Tankless Water heaters, the shortest exhaust route o the outside overules all else. Mad Dog

    GGrossEdTheHeaterMandelcrossv
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,351

    Try to keep your intake separate from the exhaust as much as possible. Concentric vents can work but typically the intake ends up pulling in the exhaust air which leaves you with premature component failure and cussing out the manufacturer. Do yourself a favor and make sure you bring in clean combustion air.

  • Cyclist77
    Cyclist77 Member Posts: 34

    Thanks for the replies! Even though I'm working at the bike shop today I am visualizing where I might locate things!

    Today I am educating myself on "near boiler piping"!

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,676
    edited January 9

    Not necessarily. The exhaust is pointed away from the building and is forced out at a high enough velocity that it will not interfere with the intake that is drawing air from as close to the wall as you can get. 

    The side by side vent cover does the same thing.  The exhaust gets forced away from the building while the hole next to it is covered so the intake comes from the wall in a similar manner. 

    When using just PVC fittings, The exhaust is recommended to point away from the building and the air intake should be equipped with a 90° elbow facing down.  That way the combustion air will be drawn from as close to the wall as you place the elbow, but from a loser point in the space than the exhaust which should be lighter than the outdoor ambient air and rise above the intake.  

    As far as a industry standard that all the manufacturers follow, there is:

    Direct vent is when the combustion air and the exhaust are are from the same outdoor location and the distance from windows can be as little as 12"

    Power vent is where the exhaust only goes outside and the combustion air comes from inside the house. That has a 4 ft minimum distance from windows. and doors measured horizontally below, and and 3 feet measured above and air intake or window

    This illustration is for power vent where you get your combustion air from inside the building.

    And all of these are based on having enough space from an adjacent building like you may find in a urban area where housing is built within a few feet of the property line and houses are only 3 or 4 feet apart.

    Basically you need to use common sense to make sure the exhaust gasses that are outside, stay outside.


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    Intplm.delcrossv
  • GGross
    GGross Member Posts: 1,351

    yes the side by side also recirc, manufacturer minimum separation will almost always also recirc. There are some that don't recirc but if you sit there with a combustion analyzer on the intake and adjust the firing rate from low to high and back you will see on many installs that you are sucking in exhaust air with a concentric (or side-by-side minimum separation) on most boilers, high fire is less likely but even then depends on the wind conditions. I agree that I would 90 down the intake and keep it as close to the building as I can, that's how I have mine done, even then there is occasional recirc. If I had the gumption to redo it I would move my intake to a totally different wall personally. I see way too many boilers recirculating flue gas, and every time the installer tells me its not until I show them that it is.

    EdTheHeaterMan
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,676

    I found one building in a condo community where there were 2 water heaters and 2 furnaces that were direct vented.  All within a 3 foot section of an outdoor wall that has landscaping that had grown up in front of the venting.  The architect designed it that way to hide those awful looking pipes.  My customer has a direct vent DHW that the thermocouple interrupt switch was butchered by someone that had no clue.  They determined that the thermocouple interrupt was the reason for the failure and got some wire cutters and solder and rigged the wiring at the gas valve.  “Fixed it good” 

    I got there just in time to use my soot vac to remove all the carbon from the flue and burner area.  (It is not called soot on a gas heater.Ask any gas company employee)  I determined that at least one of the four exhaust vents was swapped with the intake pipe.   I was able to get the gas valve to operate properly with a new thermocouple and pilot interrupt switch.  And gave the customer the price for redirecting the venting properly and extending all 4 of the exhaust vents an additional 18” from the wall, and painting them green to blend in with the shrubbery.  The price for the work was discounted 20% if they purchased a service and maintenance agreement.  A month later when the $14.95 payment for the service agreement showed up on the credit card statement, I got a call from the Lawyer son to cancel the auto-pay.  The Lawyer cancelled the needed repairs and that was the end or it.  I guess they are still having flame failure problems with the water heater.  Good thing that the “know it all” lawyer stepped in before Mom got the problems solved.    

    Mom might have has a trouble free water heater if he didn't intervene

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    GGross
  • Intplm.
    Intplm. Member Posts: 2,272

    Try not to rely on a general spec so much. Best to choose a unit and read there manufacturers recommendations.

    Most of the time if you install something and say an inspector doesn't like what has been installed, they will defer to the manufacturers recommendations, so try to start with a reputable brand first.

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,503

    My tankless has a metal version of this, works fine. (followed the manual!)

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,190

    A comment on having an unpowered air intake on one side of a house and an unpowered exhaust vent on a different wall.

    Don't.

    Why? In windy conditions the difference in the wind pressure at the two locations will be enough to completely mess up the draught on the boiler or what have you — if not even reverse it. This is less of a problem with either forced draught or induced draught, but it still isn't great.

    It's not a problem if the air intake is from the basement or other interior space.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    epmiller
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,736

    those concentric are my least favorite way to vent. Certain wind conditions tend to cause them to recirculate. We have seen a number of field modifications trying to correct that condition.

    By far the roof vent is best, air intake a few feet away.

    Wall penetration with two pipes, at least the separation the manual shows. Or more.

    Intake air from inside is sometimes an option, although they tend to be noisier

    The cleaner the air, the better. Dust, pollen, grass clippings, bugs, all need to stay out.

    The intake pipe is basically a vacuum cleaner.

    Here is one from IG, full of bugs!

    In some cases a screen, or even air filter is needed.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    ScottSecor