Cold 2nd & 3rd Floor Radiators
Hi! We recently purchased a three-story townhouse built in the 1920s with a natural gas burning one pipe steam heating system.
The 1st floor radiators get nice & hot generally (although I believe it takes too long for the steam to make it from the boiler into those first floor radiators).
Two of the 2nd floor radiators (both in bedrooms) and the two radiators on the 3rd floor (one bedroom & one bathroom) often don't get hot at all, especially if the thermostat is set at 65 or 66 degrees. If I turn up the thermostat to 70, these radiators will likely get hot initially, but may not get much heat from later heating cycles. The 1st floor (where the thermostat is) stays much warmer than those upper floors and oftentimes just a little additional heat will satisfy the thermostat and the steam will never make it to the upper floor radiators.
- The header is built in copper, which I understand is not ideal. Is the design of the header adequate?
- There is no insulation on any of the near boiler piping nor the steam main nor the portions of the risers which remain exposed in the basement.
- The first radiator in the system (in the living room) spits water sometimes when its heating up (generally only when its going from a cold start to a higher temperature - for instance, if I change the thermostat from 66 to 70. If I change it from 66 to 68 it likely won't spit water). None of the other radiators spit water.
- There is no vent at all on the steam main. The only vents in the system I believe are the radiator vents. All the radiator vents are unmarked and I can't tell what size the orifices are. I have ordered some MaidOMist Jacobus #4's for the first floor living & dining room radiators (to slow them down so maybe steam will get to the higher floors). I have ordered three Varivalve vents for the two cold bedrooms on the 2nd floor and the cold bedroom on the 3rd floor (so that hopefully steam will fill them quicker before the radiators on the 1st floor near the thermostat heat up and then satisfy the thermostat).
- There is hissing and whistling from the radiators when the air is being pushed out of the system but there is very limited water hammer. Just once in a while and it's not bad.
- Below are some photos of the boiler and steam piping in the basement as well as a schematic drawing of the radiator positions inside the house.
I would definitely appreciate your thoughts on what I can do to evenly heat our house as right now several parts of the house are not comfortable whereas others are comfortable.
Thanks!!
Comments
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You need vents on the ends of the main and the vents on the radiators checked. The boiler piping is questionable both in size and material but I think venting is your main issue.
In the laundry room it looks like a 3/4" pipe ?? coming off the top of tee where the vent should be. Maybe there is a vent up behind the ceiling. I would check that pipe out and see where it goes if you can. I may be tough to get a vent at the end of the main but it can also be drilled and tapped. I think that is the most important thing to do.
Also check the water level while it is steaming it should be steady or moving slowly up and down an inch or so. Violent fluctuations are not good.
Also what pressure are you running at? Should be 2 psi or less.
The Copper return line dropping out of the tee in the laundry room behind the washer/dryer….how does that get back to the boiler? Must be a wet return.
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In the laundry room it looks like a 3/4" pipe ?? coming off the top of tee where the vent should be. Maybe there is a vent up behind the ceiling. I would check that pipe out and see where it goes if you can. I may be tough to get a vent at the end of the main but it can also be drilled and tapped. I think that is the most important thing to do.
^^^^ THIS!!
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Thank you both! I put the #4 Jacobus MaidOMist vents on the radiators in the living / dining rooms and the VariValve vents on the upstairs radiators last night. It made a major difference. The upstairs heated up before the downstairs and the heat throughout the house was much more balanced through the night.
I will try to figure out what is in the ceiling above that 3/4" pipe coming off the tee at the end of the main. I couldn't tell using a flashlight and looking in the small hole in the drywall surrounding the 3/4" pipe. I may need to have a plumber come look at it and maybe cut a larger opening in the drywall.
The water level while the boiler is steaming seems okay to me. There are no violent fluctuations.
The pressure in the system looks to be no more than 1 PSI from looking at the pressure gauge.
The copper return line dropping out of the tee in the laundry room behind the washer/dryer hooks around the basement behind the drywall and eventually returns to the boiler in the utility room.
Please let me know if you have any other thoughts on what might be above the tee in the laundry room on the 3/4" pipe. It couldn't be a riser going to any of the radiators?
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Hi - i was hoping you might have some ideas about how to incorporate a main vent.
In the laundry room, the main ends at a 3/4" pipe which goes to a radiator in the first floor of the house directly above the laundry room.
Where would be the next best place to incorporate a main vent? And what vent would be the optimal one to use? Are there any concerns regarding the fact that there is so little room between the main itself and the ceiling drywall in placing the vent?
I was hoping to add a main vent and then insulate the near boiler piping as well as the main / exposed parts of the risers.
Thank you!
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You cold put it near the top of the copper pipe in the laundry room that drops down to the wet returns. Not ideal but it would work. Drilling and tapping the main would be better but the vent should be on a 8" or so nipple to help keep water and debris out of the vent so it would have to be someplace where you can get it above the ceiling.
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3 options for the vent.
- Drill and tap the main
- Come off the top of the main. Remove the pipe going from the main up to the radiator. There is a coupling in that pipe. Remove it and install a tee for the vent. The tee should be as close to the main as possible. The pipe for the vent should come out of the tee horizontal and if possible, have the horizontal pitch up. Running it back over the main would do this if you have room then elbow up and put the vent on using the longest nipple you have room for.
- Cut the copper return at the bottom of the main. Put the tee there.
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Also note that while the copper at the boiler is probably too small and also probably not your problem as others have noted, it is going to tend to pull the sections of the boiler apart and cause leaks between sections. You might want to think about replacing it with properly sized black iron with proper swing joints for that reason.
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How long is that steam main, and what pipe size?
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
I think everyone has already nailed it with the main line vent and issues at the radiator but have you checked to make sure the radiator valves are all 100% open? what area of NY are in you in ?
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Thank you all very much for your very helpful advice!
In response to your comments & questions:
- I will have a think about the location of the main vent. Thank you very much for your helpful suggestions regarding how it could feasibly be installed.
- I have thought about re-piping the header using the proper materials. As it seems to be working and it is cost prohibitive at the moment to do so, I think I will hold off on this for a bit. It is in the back of mind though
- The steam main is approximately 30 feet long. I will measure the circumference later today or tomorrow and get back to you.
- I have checked to make sure all the supply valves at the radiators are open 100%. One of them actually wasn't, so I opened it all the way. Several of the supply valves are unfortunately completely stuck though. I presume they are stuck in the open position as the radiators get hot and there isn't any water hammer. I don't know how much pressure I can put on the supply valves to try to open/close them (if they are currently stuck). I don't want to break any of them.
- We're in southern Westchester County in New York State.
Thank you all again! I ordered the Lost Art of Steam Heating and my copy should be arriving today.
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yeah I'm in Queens, with how cold it is it's definitely smart to wait a little for a major re-pipe, can definitely change those air valves though since it's a quick fix. Stay Warm!
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Thank you!
With regards to the steam main, the horizontal portion is approximately 30 feet long crossing the basement. I would have to measure and include some additional footage if the section that comes off the boiler before it joins the long horizontal main should be included. It is 2.5" diameter pipe.
Is there a formula to determine what kind of main vent(s) are best based upon length of main and diameter of pipe?
Thanks!
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Something to consider is to get an Ecobee thermostat. It comes with a sensor. You can put that sensor in the coldest room and it can serve as a separate thermostat.
In regard with venting, rule of thumb is smaller vent on the rooms closer to the boiler which happens to get hot first. You will have to play around with the vent size for at least a season.
Before you do play with radiator vents, it's recommended to set up a main vent toward the end of the main line as everyone else suggested.
I have a 60+ feet main line with a single Barnes Jones Big Mouth and it seems to do the job fine. For you, maybe a couple of Gorton 2. I will start with one and see what happens. I will let the experts here chime in on this.0 -
You could go with @ethicalpaul 's solution and get the maid o mist with the orifice set and put those on the cold radiators and remove the orifice until you get the main venting sorted out so they can vent through the radiator.
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