Oil tank safety valve
Happy New Year everyone!
A quick question about oil heating systems. I just inherited a home from my dad and am doing some research on a few things before I have any pros come out. Unfortunately, I have had some bad luck with contractors over the years, but have had much better luck in recent years by doing a litte research ahead of getting someone over for estimates.
My dads house has an oil heating system. If memory serves, he had the current boiler put in sometime in the early 2000s. There is an oil tank, which looks older than that to me, but I don't see any signs of leaking under it, but is is enclosed in a closet type space. I put some card board under it to see if anything dripped and left it there for the last week. I pulled it out from under and no signs of leaks. Tank is about 1/2 full.
I am thinking about renting the property out later this year. I am also thinking it might be time for a new oil tank considering its age, but would like to do it in a few months when I can put together some money for it and determine if a new boiler is needed as well.
Ok, so here is my question. My insurance asked me if there was a safety value on the oil tank. I see the filter and what looks like a valve of some kind between the filter and the tank. But, have no idea if it is a safety valve or some other kind of valve. What does a safety valve look like and where would I find it? He used the same oil company for years, I have no idea if they ever examined the system or tank. My dad was a mechanical guy, he worked on forklifts and other heavy equipment and did most servicing himself.
Quick note, I haven't lived in a home with oil heat, so I know it is a stupid question, but I could be looking right at an oil safety valve would not know it.
Thanks so much!
Dave
Comments
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The oil safety valve would be near the bottom of the tank and would appear like this one:
It would be just before the filter.
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This is a photo of what is there. Looks like one?
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No, the safety oil valve is called an "OSV" valve you can get one at a local oil burner supply. I don't know if the big box has them. Leave the existing Firomatic valve on the tank and install the osv after that. It is to protect the oil line it takes vacuum to open the osv.
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Ask them to be more specific.
Firomatic valve
or Oil Safety Valve
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Don't know what they do in other locations but in MA from an indoor tank it has to be an OSV unless the oil line is a coated protected line.
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I am in Massachusetts. Had a couple people out today. Both said tank is not leaking and looks ok, but due to the age, they want to replace the tank and don't want to add any new valves. Since I have a wall to tear down to get the old tank out of the finished basement, I will tackle this later in the year when I save up the money to get it done. Fortunately, I don't have any leaks right now, but will be keeping a close eye for now. Thanks so much for everyones help!!
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Replacing the tank "due to it's age" is simply a scam to make more money. Period. You replace it when it starts to leak. You know this because of a small drip underneath it.
And, you DO NOT have a leak in the tank.
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I will call around a little more. One of the guys said it wasn't worth it to keep the old tank because once it goes, it would be a very expensive situation to clean up. So, it is better to go all new. I am not sure why my dad never put one of these valves on.
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You need a signed inspection form from your oil supplier stating the tank is up to current code and in a reasonable state of repair to get an Escaped Fuel Endorsement added to your property owners insurance in Massachusetts. It’s an inexpensive endorsement that covers hundreds of thousands of dollars in hazmat cleanup and liability.
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One of the guys said it wasn't worth it to keep the old tank because once it goes, it would be a very expensive situation to clean up.
He's correct if, suddenly, due to an extraterrestrial force, the bottom of the tank falls to the concrete floor. However, the odds of this happening are 1:000:000:000 to 1.
They develop slight leaks………..usually near a weld. If you are going to ignore them for six months or more…………then take the advice of "one of the guys". It's your money. Do what you want.
Everyone you call will do the exact same thing. Try to scare you into a new tank. The scammers in the world are endless…………..and people fall for them every single day!
Last winter I had a leak in the #1 tank. I suppose it dripped 3-4 gallons before I noticed it. Used aluminum pans underneath until I could replace it myself. A lot of planning in that adventure.
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I get what you are saying, but if no one will do it, could it be done on a DIY project? Or just go without the OSV valve and keep an eye on the tank. The insurance rider is optional in MA.
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I agree. Unfortunately, I don't have the OSV on the tank and the people I called (one is my oil company) are only offering the new tank route.
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Insurance companies have come down hard on oil companies to prevent spills. I know MA is strict. The oil Companies don't want any liability with regard to oil lines or tanks because if something happens their insurance goes through the roof or gets cancelled, so they don't want any liability.
So if they see something they even think is questionable they will tell you to change it.
MA. passed a law years ago (maybe it's the same everywhere now) that with old uncoated oil lines under the floor you have 2 choices:
- Replace the oil line with a coated oil line
- Install an OSV valve.
This was supposed to be done years ago. I can't remember the cutoff date.
Maybe it was enforced in some areas more than others. In MA its the Fire Dept that does the inspections.
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I have read this online. I don't know why my dad didn't deal with it during his lifetime. I will never know at this point. But, it is an issue that I will have to deal with now.
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@LRCCBJ The time to replace an oil tank is long before it starts to leak. You must not be a fuel dealer who gets hit with the cleanup costs. It's been a pain, but VT's inspection process has saved hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cleanup expenses. Not to mention unnecessary oil spills.
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If the tank is over 30 years old with antiquated uninsureable lines it is worth replacing with a double walled plastic lined tank (Roth, Granby’s higher end models, etc.) which will likely outlive you.
The escaped fuel oil rider is inexpensive and covers what otherwise would be an unbearable financial burden in a catastrophe. Worth every penny to have that insurance.
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Decommissioning an old oil tank by DIY is kind of a big deal. The old tank as a whole, is considered hazardous waste. It has to be cut open and ALL oil residue must be removed before a metal salvage place will receive it. There are contractors that do this specifically. They are pricey because of all of the regulations and insurance oversight. In Vermont any fuel delivery company can refuse to deliver fuel if they feel that a tank looks 'marginal'…because they bear some or all of the liability if it leaks, now.
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Agreed with Ed above, I replaced my bare copper feed line that traveled underneath the concrete floor with a new coated oil line above ground knowing concrete will degrade copper over time and cause leaking unseen under concrete. My in basement 275 gal oil tank is at least 50 years oil and is botton feed to oil burner with no signs of leaking made with what I believe is 10 gauge heavy duty steel. Burner runs year round ( light duty in summer) so not sure if that has made a difference in longevity
Regards,
RTW
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A leaking oil tank (even a very slow drip) is a call for delivery STOP. Now it's a rush to pump out, remove the old tank, set the new tank, and hopefully not pump back any sludge. Things go much better if you can do it at your leisure and plan accordingly. My basement 275 was 35 years old before I replaced it. But my new tank is in a different location so I had time to prep.
If possible, I recommend running the old tank very low and do not pump over oil from the old tank to the new.
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@Dave119. This point that @psb75 makes above as well as all of what @EBEBRATT-Ed mentions above are spot on.
If you chose to DIY there is much to consider. If the darn thing leaks when the tank is full, how long will you have before the tank can be replaced? Will you be able to let the tank run close to dry? What will you do as a DIY with all of the oil in the tank? How much oil will be too much or little enough? Is the leak severe or is it a small manageable leak? Do you have the means to pump out the oil in the old tank and then return the oil to the new tank safely? You can use an oil company to pump out the oil and then return that "pump out" oil to your new tank for a fee.That is if you can find one that will do it.
If you should decide to pump out the oil on your own how much remote storage will you need and where will you put it? Fifty five gallon drums or other types of temporary tanks will be in your future for storage. And with all of the EPA issues to contend with, are you ready to meet those requirements if there is a spill while handling the oil? They have become very strict. You also have to consider how long this might take. You must also think about how long you can allow the house to be without heat. If the tank needs replacement in the winter in the dead cold of February, and with Murphys law it will need its replacement then.
These are not scare tactics. These are real world scenarios that the oil companies must contend with every single day. Keep this in mind while you contemplate your newly acquired house. Renters will need to be supplied with heat and can make a lot of noise when the heat isn't working.
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You can do it yourself if you plan it carefully. You do have the following issues:
1. You need to run the tank down quite low……………25 gallons or so.
2. You have about 25 gallons on the bottom that you cannot use. You'd need to put them in 5 gallon containers and find someone who will take the waste oil. There are companies that recycle the waste oil and pick it up if you have 1000 gallons of it. The key is to find a small operator that will let you bring the 25 gallons to them. Or find someone who burns waste oil.
3. You need two strong individuals to move the tank. If it is in the basement, you need a refrigerator hand truck.
4. You must cut the old tank open at the top and remove all the oil sludge in the bottom.
5. You must take the tank to a metal recycler.
6. It is a difficult project for one day…………..but possible. You won't have hot water if the HW is provided by fuel oil unless you have a second tank.
7. You need to bleed the burner to get any air out of the line (if 1 pipe).
That's why the oil companies get a small fortune to replace a tank.
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It is a lot to think about.
The insurance rider is off the table as I don't have the OSV so i don't qualify. Fortunately, the tank is not leaking now.
As part of the removal process, I will need to remove a wall in the finished basement. It is in a decent sized closet, but too small to get out without taking out the wall.
So, I think my strategy is to try to run with it through the winter and then let the tank run down in the Spring, then make the decision on how to do the project. It would be nice to do it in a little warmer weather, where I can open the windows and get some fresh air in while working on taking the wall down. I was thinking of getting one of those tubs to go under the tank, just in case, and watch it closely over the winter.
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If the tank is not leaking now, I wouldn't break into a sweat. Follow your plan and wait until spring. Run the tank down as you get towards spring. You will be fine.
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And you may not have to remove the wall. You can cut your old tank into manageable removable pieces and install one or two oil tanks that will fit through and in your current space.
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The potential cost of a failure can be astronomical, waiting until disaster strikes isn't a great plan
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Generally, as you are well aware, "disaster doesn't strike".
The tanks develop a drip………….which can accelerate…………but are eminently manageable with suitable pans until one can make the switch.
Why don't you then suggest to replace the tank every 10 years………..just to prevent A DISASTER from striking? You really don't know when the tank will give you a DISASTER…………now do you?
You don't work for an oil company so I'm a bit surprised at such a response!
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Just my thoughts: Knowing that a brand new 275 oil tank has the life span of a new refrigerator - maybe 12 to 15 years about the time just after the warranty expires - Ive chosen to stay with my 50 plus year old 275 oil storage tank in basement built back when controlled obsolescence was nothing more than a theory. Even my oil suppler and service company has said as much about the minimal life of new tanks. I believe the OP has his mind made up out of concern by postings of "The sky is falling" meaning:
"A groundless or absurd conviction that some catastrophic consequence is imminent or underway"
All the best,
Regards.
RTW
P.S. There are ways to test / examine the integrity of an existing older oil storage tank already posted on this site in other threads if one were to use the search engine
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There are a couple different concerns that bother me. I worry the oil company will stop delivery because I don't have the OSV value. They havn't yet, but I am thinking that they might if I told them I was opting to keep the old tank for a while. Also, my dad did all the servicing on the boiler. It runs great, but I am worried the company will refuse to service it in this scenario, and I may run into similar problems no matter what oil company I choose to go with. They will come out, inspect the tank, and tell me to replace or refuse to deliver. I could learn the ins and outs of servicing the boiler. That is a DIY task that I think I could handle. I can tell you my dad would not be concerned about it at all. Unfortunately, his mechanical aptitude it not something I got a lot of, LOL. My main concern is not being able to get any help with the boiler when it needs service or repair or potentially not being able to get any oil delivered.
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I would like to follow up on this comment in particular, but wonder what others experiences have been on the actual scenarios and probability of catastrophic events with these tanks. After meeting with the folks who I had come in to check things out, the message conveyed to me (indirectly) was its fairly common for someone with an older tank like mine with no leaks, to wake up one morning with 100 gallons of oil on the floor and $100K in damages to deal with. This caused immediate panic. After digesting everything here, it seems like by far the most common scenario is for a small leak to develop over time, which with regular observation could be caught early with the tank removed at that time. And, even with a new tank, the same possibility exists that the bottom could fall out and cause such an event as the new tanks lifespan are less than older ones. So, even if I get a new tank, I will most certianly take a look under there regularly just as a precaution just as I would with the current tank.
So, to the question. How often have you guys seen a tank go from no signs of leaking to a basement full of oil within a short amount of time, say a couple years? I can understand if someone has been ignoring a small leak or catching it with a bucket for a long time, but what about from 0 to 100 kind of situation.
I think my biggest problem is my dad left me with a heating system that seems to be working great and an older oil tank with no leaks, but also no service records for the boiler and no OSV on the tank. I am not 100% on the new tank if I can continue getting oil delivered and find someone to service the boiler. I would like to get the OSV installed if possible as its suppose to have one. I am kind of a little queezy on the DIY, out of fear of making a big mess, lol!
I don't mean to beat a dead horse here at all, but getting into this a little, it is a pretty interesting topic.
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Just find someone to install an OSV valve.
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New plastic lined double wall galvanized tanks (Roth, Granby’s better models) don’t have a shorter lifespan. The only ones that do are the cheap import single wall steel ones.
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In my opinion, you probably do not need a new tank, but you said yourself that it is really old. Tank replacement should be proactive and not reactive. Has anyone done an ultrasonic test on the bottom of the tank to see its actual condition? Tanks generally don't just suddenly blow out, they will start to drip first. The issue with letting them get bad enough to start dripping @LRCCBJ is when you get a delivery you have a huge potential for that drip to open up into a full fledged leak. This is how basements get filled with oil. I've been in houses with over 100 gallons of oil on the floor. You will not want to ever live in that house again.
@LRCCBJ Canada already makes people replace tanks based on age and not condition. Guess who's going to be next. Vermont's new codes are pretty extreme and I'm sure Mass is soon to follow. One of these states will go to aging out tanks in the next 5 years.
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I have to ask a question. Who in their right mind would fill a tank (60 GPM flow rate) when it is leaking steadily from the bottom?
If that is what an individual did, then they deserve the 100 gallons on the basement floor. You can't fix stupid.
We are going to be next. Because you can't trust the public to monitor their own tanks and you must legislate endlessly because you can't fix stupid.
I do agree with your suggestion of an ultrasonic test. I'm going to get it done on the second tank (35 years of age).
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Opinion: I find it interesting - and it is corroborated in others posts and threads on this site- that older oil storage tanks can last over half a century with no hint of a leak. One would think newer tanks would have been improved upon over time, but everything I've read and discussed with my Oil Company say newer tanks fail within a decade or two, smh
Just sayin,
Regards,
RTW
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I wonder if all the old tanks were 10 ga. Maybe the reduction to 12 ga. causes the earlier failure?
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Back in the day oil tanks were 16 gauge. I always thought the standard indoor tanks were 12gauge not 10 but I could always be wrong.
When I did oil stuff 40-50 years out of a tank was very common.
AH, when life was simple MA had there own oil burner code. No longer. Now I just looked in NFPA and they don't even say what gauge tank metal must be. They just refer you to other standards and nonsense.
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Opinion: I think some of these posts on this thread have successfully put the "fear of god " into OP by those wanting to change out the tank. Thus, not much more I can add. In the Healthcare system we have a term, hypochondriacs concerning their health, not sure what the equivalent term is over obsessing over one's non-leaking oil storage tank?
Farewell,
RTW
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The one HD sells for $1000 is 12 gauge which is what I thought.
$1000, back when I started we used to drive to a tank MFG in East Hartford, CT (Can't remember the name) and pick up 4 of them in a PU truck. $50 each.
When you got there he would ask "Mass or CT"?. And he would get the appropriate tank tag and tack it on the tank with his welder.
What say you @EdTheHeaterMan ?
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