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Combines intake and exhaust on gas w/heater?

guzzinerd
guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

Went over to a neighbor's who asked me to look at her water heater that isn't working. The code it's throwing is failed ignition so I told her she needs to call a professional.

While looking it over I noticed that the intake is tied into the exhaust pipe near the inside wall.. shouldn't they be separate?

Also, this looks like a failed vent, yes?

Thank you.

Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    Uh… yeah… that exhaust/intake piping just doesn't make any sense at all. Who on earth?

    That air release fitting isn't on the domestic hot water, I hope? But on a heating system? It may not be failed, but it's tired.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,487

    Yes it looks like the Hy-vent on the air scoop has been fouled. Should be a simple fix to replace.

    That exhaust/ intake is a concentric set up.

    Often that is called a "bazooka" termination. The piping most prob does not combine there… just the penetration.

    It does look like it could have a bit more support.

    Larry WeingartenPC7060
  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,452

    I concur with @kcopp , it’s a concentric fitting. More concerning though is, why the air skimmer on a water heater?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,262

    maybe… verify

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    guzzinerd
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,848

    CI air scoop they must be using this for heat. I think it would have disintegrated years ago if use on a water heater. The high vent wouldn't take city water pressure and why would you need a hi vent on domestic water?

    Doesn't make much sense.

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,487

    My Bet is that they are using the water heater to heat a radiant set up or an air handler.

    Some people do that sort of thing….

  • Danny Scully
    Danny Scully Member Posts: 1,452

    The expansion tank is domestic though. See how it increases to 3/4”? Confusing all around.

  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

    She does have hydronic heated floors using a separate heater in the basement.

    Often that is called a "bazooka" termination. The piping most prob does not combine there… just the penetration.

    Only one pipe comes out of the exterior. Are you saying it should be divided from that point to the outside?

    Thanks

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

    She hasn't had hot water since it stopped firing. Uses the stove to heat water to bath with currently.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,816

    does it have a mushroom cap on the outside like this. If so it is a concentric kit.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    guzzinerd
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305
    edited January 2

    Yes it does, thank you. Tomorrow I'll go back and take pics of the floor heating system and post them here. Maybe it will make sense of her setup to you.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,816

    The black upper part of that Honeywell air vent rotates to an on/ off position so you can service it. But I would just replace it at this time.

    I'm guessing that is a hydronic system? I've never seen an air purger on a domestic water heater? Certainly not an iron bodied type?

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305
    edited January 2

    Below the other water heater, this is what's running the hydraunic floor heat. The other water heater that's not firing right now is for the shower and sinks, residential.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 336

    That looks like a solar indirect. Can you sketch the piping layout for the site? My guess the polaris is supplying hot water directly and space heat through the indirect tank.

  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305
    edited January 2

    The valve (shown, top of this pic) on the pipe going to the (non-working) gas heater is off. The hot water going into this tank is solar heated. I don't know how much of the pipe is visible, will try and sketch out a basic layout next time i go.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,717

    @guzzinerd Said: Went over to a neighbor's who asked me to look at her water heater that isn't working. The code it's throwing is failed ignition so I told her she needs to call a professional

    Good Call! If you have no Idea on what to do, then put your hands in your pockets and back away from the problem until you can find out more about it

    @guzzinerd Said: While looking it over I noticed that the intake is tied into the exhaust pipe near the inside wall.. shouldn't they be separate?

    What you are looking at is a proper concentric design venting system. Here is the detail on that design.

    THE EXHAUST GASSES FROM THE HEATER WILL EXIT IN THE CENTER (Orange) VENT PIPE THAT GOES FULL SIZE 2" THRU THE MIDDLE OF THE ASSEMBLY. THE AIR INTAKE COMES IN THRU THE LARGER OUTER PIPE (Blue) THAT IS AROUND THE EXHAUST PIPE. THIS IS CALLED A CONCENTRIC VENT. YOU CAN MAKE ONE LARGER HOLE IN THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING AND HAVE BOTH INTAKE AND EXHAUST USE THE SAME OPENING.  SINCE THE INLET AIR COMES FROM NEAR THE BUILDING AND THE EXHAUST IS PUSHED STRAIT AWAY FROM THE BUILDING, THERE IS LESS CHANCE FOR THE EXHAUST TO FIND ITS WAY BACK TO THE AIR INTAKE.

    @guzzinerd Said: She does have hydronic heated floors using a separate heater in the basement.

    That is the wrong heater for a closed system. But that does not means someone mIght not try to make it work. I have used a water heater to do space heating and learned the hard way that Cheap isn't always the lowest cost way to do things. Ask Me how I Know?

    @guzzinerd commented on @kcopp's statement: "Often that is called a "bazooka" termination. The piping most prob does not combine there… just the penetration." Only one pipe comes out of the exterior. Are you saying it should be divided from that point to the outside?

    See my reply above about the Concentric. And I never heard it called a Bazooka.

    @guzzinerd Said: Below the other water heater, this is what's running the hydraunic floor heat. The other water heater that's not firing right now is for the shower and sinks, residential.

    There are parts on the potable water system that have no reason to be there. I can see that the owner of this location is not afraid of using unqualified and incompetent people to save $$. Those inexperienced people often charge less because they really don't know what they are doing. I would not offer any guidance @guzzinerd . Your inexperience may come back to haunt you if you get involved. 


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    guzzinerd
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

    Thanks @EdTheHeaterMan this is definitely out of my wheelhouse but could tell things are probably off which is why I presented it this forum

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

  • Kaos
    Kaos Member Posts: 336

    Since it sounds like the heat is working, I would not worry about how it is plumbed. If the Polaris is not connected to it, it doesn't matter.

    The cast iron air separator on top doesn't make sense though. Thick casting like that will last a very long time in fresh water, so except for a bit of rust, it doesn't matter it is there.

    Auto air vent should always be closed after the system is filled otherwise they will leak. Make sure to close it after replacing the current one.

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 23,816

    The Rheem SolarAide has a coil wrapped around the outside of the tank for the HX. Do you have solar panels? If not maybe the Polaris is heating the SolarAide.

    If all those iron pumps were on potable water side you would have red water most of the time.

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    EdTheHeaterManPC7060
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

    hot_rod
  • guzzinerd
    guzzinerd Member Posts: 305

    The igniter was cracked, new one on the way.

    Bryant 245-8, 430k btu, 2-pipe steam in a 1930s 6-unit 1-story apt building in the NM mountains. 26 radiators 3800sqf

    PC7060
  • PC7060
    PC7060 Member Posts: 1,521

    nice work!

    guzzinerd