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water loss in old steam heat residential system

tec10
tec10 Member Posts: 5

1938 steam heat system, 1991 Burnham boiler. Been in the house 20 years. First 15 I don't recall adding water but maybe once per month.

5 years ago , I had to add every 2 weeks, which became every week then every day. I knew something was wrong- local guy broke up concrete and replace leaking return line (Hartford loop?) with new copper. Problem solved….until last year. Last winter I needed to add water every week and that persists this year. At that rate- once per week.

Present situation:

  • I have swapped out all radiator valves with same ones that were there- no leaks. They are dry when I fired up the system.
  • Risers in basement do not leak- but are rusty. They run dry- and I can't imagine could account for all of this water loss (see below)
  • Return lines have never been flushed, and I don't have valves to even attempt
  • No white smoke from chimney
  • I am adding approximately 1.5 gals per week (I measured what each 1/8 on the site glass is equivalent to -2.5liters- by draining and measuring the output)

Local plumbers are nice guys, but don't seem interested in getting to the bottom of it. I think they are more general plumbers.

Ideas?

  • I though maybe have the return lines cut out and replaced- they are all easily accessible. Even if that doesn't fix the issue, at least I have that part of the system new?.
  • Maybe the leak under the floor persists, and has come apart? These guys have an excellent reputation over 50 years in town.
  • Find someone on Long Island that wants to think through this with and for me?
  • Do these systems have an end of life? What are they replaced with?

I am sort of at a loss and could use some help.

I love this steam heat. It makes the house, but I am growing to hate it on those day I wake up and it is 50 in the house and the water cutuff light is red?

Comments

  • tec10
    tec10 Member Posts: 5

    Forgot to mention- natural gas heat - if that matters

  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,174

    Have anyone took at look at the burners or flooded the boiler to see if the block is leaking . Usually removing the front door and inspecting the burners will give you some insight sometimes you will see evidence of water running down the block but usually it evaporates before making it to the floor . Usually one would flood the boiler block and check for some drips . Checking all radiator supply valves and the nuts is advised .
    peace and good luck clammy
    you could try reaching out to one of the contractors listed on this site

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

  • Dennis
    Dennis Member Posts: 124

    Hidden piping, or a boiler section leaking is usually the culprit with hard to find leaks. Best not to replace iron pipe in the floor with copper if the concrete it to be repaired. Exposed copper does not like concrete over the long run.

    There was an error rendering this rich post.

  • tec10
    tec10 Member Posts: 5
    edited December 2024
    • they wrapped the pipe in insulation before putting back concrete- which In thought would prevent corrosion- but maybe not?
    • could that pipe corrode that quickly? 5 years?
    • if it is that pipe, should I ask about a pump rather than keep breaking up the floor?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,263

    First, if the section of return which was repaired wasn't the whole thing, it should have been. End to end. Go back and fix that.

    Second, you are not looking for a puddle. That amount of water does seem like a lot, and it's more than it should be — but if the problem is on a hot pipe you're just not going to see it. Remember that one drip of water every ten seconds is a gallon of water per day, more or less.

    Radiator inlet valves. Are any of them leaking a little steam? Can be hard to find, but it's a common area. Is there a threaded joint on a dry return or steam main or runout which looks a little rusty, maybe even damp? That sort of thing…

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • heat1999
    heat1999 Member Posts: 30

    I wonder how high you could fill the water to?

    I suppose if you plugged the main vents you could fill the mains with water as well and check for leaks

  • RTW
    RTW Member Posts: 166

    I concur on your post:

    OP "Local plumbers are nice guys, but don't seem interested in getting to the bottom of it. I think they are more general plumbers." They haven't been suitably trained in steam heat for decades, Please dont ask the guy that buried copper in concrete back - smh

    OP And, "replace leaking return line (Hartford loop?) with new copper." Copper is frowned upon by the pros

    Hopefully, some pro on this site is nearby to assist, though you may be able to figure it out on your own with above advice and do the fix , or tell the guy what you want him to do ( I did this and worked with a smart plumber to get my system close to perfect)

    Regards,

    Bob

  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,093

    If the new copper wet return was wrapped in insulation before the concrete was put back, it should be fine. That is standard practice. And it's fine to use copper for piping that does not carry steam, like wet returns.


    Bburd
    delcrossv
  • RTW
    RTW Member Posts: 166

    By bburb:

    " And it's fine to use copper for piping that does not carry steam, like wet returns."

    QUESTION: As an aside and not to change topic, as a pro bburb, what's your opinion on all the posts on this site showing "copper" used in near boiler piping carrying steam instead of using traditional steel/iron? Is it for the convenience of the installer vs more work to use steel/iron?

    Im not trying to be rhetorical just wondering if copper is substituted at the convenience of the installer to reduce labor. I already know code does not apply

    Regards,

    RTW

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,263

    There is a very good reason why copper can be problematic in steam carrying piping — but is not, inherently, bad. Expansion. Particularly in near boiler piping the use of copper can cause a good deal of stress on the cast iron or steel of the boiler, as the copper will expand faster — and a lot further — than the iron or steel. Unless provision is made in the piping to absorb that expansion without putting stress on the boiler — or, for that matter, other piping or even sometimes other structure — problems can occur.

    These problems show up in two ways: damage to, including cracking, of the boiler if the copper is piped so as to try to pull it apart, and leaks at the soldered joints in the copper (if solder is used) and the movement of the pipes cracks the solder (it will).

    Neither of these things are a problem with iron pipe — it expands in the same way as the boiler does, so that's not a problem, and it is very easy to pipe it in such a way as stress on the joints is near zero, as a threaded joint can give a little without leaking.

    ProPress joints for copper appear to be able to give a little in rotation, as threaded joints can; they have not been used as long as threaded joints have, so there is some question as to their longevity if constantly stressed.

    That said, even with something like ProPress, the piping must be arranged with double swing joints (one advantage of a drop header) so that variations in expansion rate cannot impose any linear stress on the boiler or other pipiing. The alternative is very long expansion loops, so that any potential linear stresses are taken up by bending in the pipe itself between joints. Expansion loops, to be effective, however, take up a lot of space and may not be feasible in steam lines.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    bburd
  • tec10
    tec10 Member Posts: 5

    thank you for the suggestion. I will go joint by joint and valve by valve by valve to try to rule out anything visible. Once done, I might have to call in the pro- if any recommendations for Long Island are forthcoming it would be appreciated.

  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,093
    edited December 2024

    @RTW Some contractors use copper on steam piping because it's standard practice on hot water systems, which they are accustomed to dealing with. They have the parts on the truck, they know how to solder, and they might not own pipe threading equipment or the wrenches needed to work with steel pipe. Also, they often don't read the installation manual that came with the steam boiler; so they don't know about the problems Jamie described above.

    Since steam heat is generally not installed in new homes, the trade is losing the specialized knowledge that goes with it.


    Bburd
    delcrossvRTW
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,490

    @bburd said: "Since steam heat is generally not installed in new homes, the trade is losing the specialized knowledge that goes with it."

    That's why we're here.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    bburddelcrossv
  • RTW
    RTW Member Posts: 166

    As to my personal experience working on steam, I added three new radiators (used in excellent shape) to my system after purchasing house. I worked with a good plumber/ heating guy who had a pipe threader who knew how to work with steel pipe, but I did all the carpentry and design to place the piping and proper size - with the help of information from this site. I had to learn about venting too and added main vents along with a permanent skim port to boiler. It was a bit of a nail biter after the plumber left as to whether the system would actually work, but surprisingly everything did work and tweaking the venting finished the job - and of course skimming the boiler slow and many times

    Regards,

    RTW

  • tec10
    tec10 Member Posts: 5

    any recommendations for steam specialists on Long Island?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 25,263

    Any of the folks in New York state in "Find a Contractor"… I might suggest giving Danny Scully a call as a first shot. 516.887.1122 He's right up there with the best. Located in Malverne.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • Long Beach Ed
    Long Beach Ed Member Posts: 1,438
    edited December 2024

    There are several excellent guys on Long Island who consult on this site.

    First we fill the boiler to the header to make sure it's not leaking on the steam side. When faced with leaks we can't find by observation, we remove the vents, plug the holes and pressurize the system with air using a small compressor. Valve packings leaking steam whistle like teapots and water leaks turn into sprinklers. Takes an hour or two but we find every leak.