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Short cycling boiler. I'm stumped.

2

Comments

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I've got a power vent..

    Also the voltage reads 111 when on b1 and b2 terminals while burner cycles on and off.

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 476

    OK, so you have ruled OUT the L8124 as the cause of the problem. It has nothing to do with the circulators.

    I'm inclined to agree with Ed that the problem is related to that power vent system, which is noted to be problematic.

    I would pull all the connectors for the power vent and look for corrosion on any of them.

    ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Standard operation with a normal chimney vent

    1. Call for heat will power up the primary control and feed 120 V to the orange wire. The orange wire is connected to the burner motor, Ign Oil Valve, Etc. and the flame will light.

    2. Call for heat over the orange wire looses power and the motor stops

    If the power venter is wired correctly then the sequence of operation is different. 

    1. Call for heat primary control sends power to the orange wire
    2. Orange wire is connected to T1 on the power vent.
    3. Power vent motor operates fan
    4. Fan prover switch connects T1 to T3
    5. T3 sends power to oil burner Motor, Ign, Valve, Etc.
    6. Burner motor operates and flame is established
    7. Call for heat is over, and orange wire from primary stops burner motor 
    8. Power vent motor continues for post purge timing 

    What is happening with your power vent is when you get to step 6. Above, the pressure from the combustion process causes the prover switch to open and stop the burner motor. Then the cycle goes back to step 3 above, once the pressure from combustion is gone.

    You need to clean the combustion fan. If you have a Tjernlund, the process is about the same just the terminal designation is different

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainerPC7060
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 22

    This is the side shot wiring diagram with the electronic control like yours.

    Orange wire powers the SideShot thru the 950-0480 relay. Prover switch is connected to the B and Y terminals on the side shot. Y goes to the burner motor.

    O from primary is connected to O on the SideShot. O on SideShot is jumped to B on the SideShot. Prover switch inside the SideShot is connected to B and Y. Then Y sends power t the burner motor.

    Looking At the service log tag, it appears the SideShot power vent has been cleaned on more than one occasion. You should include that service in your annual oil burner tune up and cleaning service.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Thank you very much! I'm about to cut the power and get started. Actually did change out the squirl cage a couple years ago. Started getting louder and louder until it blew apart inside. Burner wouldn't even attempt to start.

    I'll wipe it down and check the wires. Any tips on cleaning the proving tube?

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    This proving tube doesn't seem to want to come out so I just felt around on the other side. Seems pretty crusty so brushed it off on the inside. I'll use a pipe cleaner from the other end..

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 22

    Stop at a local tobacco shop and get a few for free.

    OR

    Get 200 pipe cleaners from Amazon.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,458

    Just throwing this idea out there. Is it possible that the low water cutoff is shutting off power and causing the short cycling because there is no water pressure in the boiler? The water pressure issue really needs to be addressed.

    I would definitely check the expansion tank and replace any automatic air vents before refilling the boiler after the pressure reducing fill valve is replaced.

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I had a good amount from my kids arts and crafts. Lol

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I just opened up my low water cut off box... looks like ..... crap.

    Should my PSI always show 15 ? Or should it climb to that as the heat climbs?

    SuperTech
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Unfortunately, I threw it all back together after cleaning up the fan and proving tube and she still short cycles.

    I've spent most of the day down here.I think it's time for a drink!

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52
    edited December 23

    She stopped short cycling and here is where we're at. I'll get back to it in the morning. This sucks!! I do really appreciate everybody helping me out through out the day.

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 476
    edited December 23

    Well done!

    Please do what I suggested above and get some more water in the boiler. Get the coupling from HD. Take you 5 minutes to do it.

    You can wait until the weather warms up to tackle the PRV.

    You start the pressure at 12- 15 psi when COLD. It will climb to 15-22 when HOT, depending on the size of the system and how well the tank is setup.

    ColdMainerjesmed1SuperTech
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Haha! I guess I typed that wrong. I meant that it was short cycling for quite some time, when it finally did cut off and stopped cycling, that was where the gage currently sat at. I'm wicked stressed! The last thing i wanna do is call a tech and spend a fortune!

    I'll go to home depot and get that hose and see if I can do that trick tomorrow. The system just seems to heat up enough for a hot shower. Heating house seems to be too much for it.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,765

    The leaking probe is probably why the pressure dropped to zero since the regulator is probably not allowing make up water to enter into the system.

    The corrosion on the insulator of the probe may give a false positive to water presence should the water leak down below that point.

    With the high moisture environment inside the low water cut off box the wiring, relay, electronics may have been compromised causing intermittent behavior.

    The LWCO unit and the probe probably should be replaced.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    ColdMainerLRCCBJdelcrossvSuperTech
  • neilc
    neilc Member Posts: 2,868

    clean up the low water probe wire connection, including changing the wire end terminal, wire may be rotting there,

    did you spray that with oil? or is that slo mo leakage?

    known to beat dead horses
    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Thats a great point. Would replacing that LWCO include having to drain the system?

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Okay. Nope, i didn't touch it. I just took the cover off for the first time since I've lived here. Must be slo mo.

  • 109A_5
    109A_5 Member Posts: 1,765

    With no valves to isolate it, sadly yes, with system pressure being maintained it will probably leak more.

    National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
    Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
    One Pipe System
    ColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529

    Not likely…. The power vent prover switch is the reason for the short cycle problem. I have seen this before. In person and on this site. Get the Tjernlund prover switch to work right and the problem is solved.

    That does not mean you shouldn't fix the LWCO probe and get water in the boiler. A professional maintenance worker by an experienced technician may have found all that stuff before it caused you these problems.   

    Or are you trying to hit a trifecta this week?


    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 1,437

    This advice is gonna suck, but needs to be done.

    Order a new LWCO and PRV .

    Drain the system when they arrive.

    Replace both, purge and go.

    Remember. No tape on the LWCO probe, light coat of pipe dope only.

    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.
    ColdMainerSuperTech
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,590

    You need to get water in that poor boiler before you do anything. As others have said it is cold out so not a good day to mess with a PRV.

    Get a garden hose and a washing machine hose (or a female x female hose adapter) Hook the garden hose onto a cold water supply (like at the washing machine) and hook the other end to a boiler drain or somewhere on the heating system and get the pressure up to 15psi.

    As @LRCCBJ said.

    delcrossvColdMainerSuperTechLRCCBJ
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I'm heading to HD soon. Been anxious all night reading up a little further on all this stuff. I'm glad I've got this whole week off to do whatever I have to, and I appreciate all you guys hangin with me. I'll keep you posted.

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I came down to the boiler this AM and the gage is at 0 degrees but the PSI is up and there's water running out. The boiler hasn't run all I night. I wanted to be sure it was cold for when I add water. The last it ran was when I let it short cycle until it stopped after I cleaned out the power vent and proving tube last night.

    Should I still be trying to add water?

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    I'm contemplating going dam ham on this one. Drain it. Replace the PRV. Clean up/replace LWCO. Purge. I'm backed into a corner at this point. I wasnt expecting the water pressure to be @ 30 PSI this morning @ 0 degrees

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 476

    The only way that can occur is if the PRV finally decided to budge and added water to the boiler without the ability to fully return to the closed position after the boiler reached 15 lb.

    Sorry, but you must now replace it. It's completely non-functional.

    delcrossvColdMainerSuperTech
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Alright. I've got my work cut out for me. Let's go!

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 23

    I still think that your short cycling is the SideShot. To prove this you can do a simple test. Take a TEMPORARY jumper wire and connect the O on the SideShot control to the Y on the SideShot control. This will stop the short cycling. of the burner.

    This temporary jumper is not to stay on the control. It is for testing purposes only. Once you have determined that the proving switch is causing the short cycling, You must remove the jumper and determine why the proving switch is opening whenever the burner runs.

    There are also other repairs that are required. Getting the short cycling resolved, does not eliminate the dangers that the other problems represent.

    You probably want to get the new water feed valve and the new LWCO probe taken care of as soon as possible.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    You don't know how much I appreciate all of you guys help. I will do just that once I'm done draining the system etc. I'm heading home now with the prv, hose, solder, etc.. I'm hoping to just reuse the dual check valve already on there, and hoping i can clean up the LWCO until I can afford another one..

  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 23

    You can purchase just the leaking probe, as long as the control still works.

    https://www.supplyhouse.com/Hydrolevel-45-214-EL1214-3-4-NPT-Standard-Ceramic-Probe-2-7-8-ID

    As long as you are taking the plumbing apart to replace the Watts 1156F look at the intake of the Watts 9-D backflow preventer. There is a screen on the intake side union.

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer
  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Alright. I busted out the old pipe dope and blue monster thread tape from my plumbing days. Cleaned up the nasty back flow preventer screen and picked up a new 1/2 nipple. The old one was broken and rotten on the end.

    I also tried cleaning up the LWCO probe and contact. I noticed it starting to drip water so once the boiler was completely drained I put pipe dope around it. I know. I think it's hilarious and would be very surprised if it works. I don't think I'm capable of changing the entire switch though. Between all the wires and conduit going from the burner to 3 or 4 other things. Looks like a nightmare. If it's leaky I'll most likely do what Ed the heater man suggested and change the probe, if I can figure that one out.

    I'm ready to turn the water on I think!

  • SuperTech
    SuperTech Member Posts: 2,458

    You don't need to put Teflon tape or pipe dope on the union connections to the backflow preventer. I'm referring to the connections to the left and right of where it says "inlet" in the last picture. Those connections should just have a gasket in them. I wouldn't be surprised if the Teflon tape causes it to leak.

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    Oh boy. I noticed it didn't have any on it when I took it apart. I re used the gaskets.

  • ColdMainer
    ColdMainer Member Posts: 52

    The toggle switch ontop of the PRV is loose. I thought it could lift it vertically and throttle water in. I've read through the instructions and it doesn't really explain.

  • LRCCBJ
    LRCCBJ Member Posts: 476

    Just ignore the toggle switch for now. When you turn on the water, the PRV will provide automatically until the pressure reaches the setpoint (presumably 15 psi).

    When you purge the zones, you'll deal with the toggle switch.

    delcrossvColdMainer
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 9,529
    edited December 24

    The top lever on the Watts 1156 PRV (auto feed) works like this:

    • In the upright position the pressure reducer is bypassed and the valve is in the open position and will continue to add water regardless of the boiler pressure. CAUTION: this will add pressure above the relief valve pop off pressure and you may get water all over the floor
    • To adjust the valve pressure to match your expansion tank pressure you need to drain some water from the boiler in order to reduce the boiler pressure to about 10 PSI or lower. Do this by letting some water out of the boiler at the boiler drain. You do not need to empty the boiler, just get the pressure lower than your expansion tank empty pressure.
    • Remove the top cap that holds the toggle lever completely, and that will reveal the pressure adjustment. Remove the center fast fill pin in order to place a screwdriver in the slot

    NOTICE: If the fast fill pin is missing, the fast fill feature of the Watts 1156F will not work.

    • Loosen the locking nut so you can adjust the hollow brass adjuster screw with a screwdriver.
    • Turn the adjuster counterclockwise at least 2 turns.
    • Open the manual feed valve to the PRV.
    • Listen to hear if any water is flowing into the boiler.
    • If there is no flow or when the flow stops read the boiler pressure on the gauge.
    • Turn the adjuster screw clockwise until you hear water flow into the boiler and watch the boiler pressure gauge.  
    • If the water flow stops before you get to 12 PSI (or the desired pressure for your system) then turn the adjuster Clockwise a little more. Continue this adjustment until you get the PRF to stop adding water at 12 PSI
    • Once you get the pressure adjustment where you need it, then tighten the locking screw.
    • Replace the small pin in the center of the adjusting screw
    • Replace the cap with the toggle lever.  

    There is a good video on YouTube that explains what water pressure you need in your boiler. Copy and paste this ULR to your Web Browser to see it on You Tube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9jtvsXJoGg

    Edward Young Retired

    After you make that expensive repair and you still have the same problem, What will you check next?

    ColdMainer