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Spill Sensor/Ignition-Cycling Problem Part 3

NewGuy
NewGuy Member Posts: 27

I have a two part problem I'm trying to solve. 1. During colder weather, cold downdraft pushing down the flue leads to the spill sensor tripping. 2. With the basement window closed, the boiler short cycles. Both problems pretty much disappear when the window is open. I assume the spill is resolved because its heat operated, and when it's cold, the draft keeps the temperature low enough until the exhaust warms up the flue enough to work properly. I am guessing, with help from folks on this site and the boiler manufacturer, that the short-cycling is related to make up air. This theory was reinforced when the boiler was gasping, I turned off the two dryers, and it began to improve.

For the downdraft problem I have purchased an in-line draft inducer: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Tjernlund-D-3-D-3-In-Line-Draft-Inducer-1-20-HP-115V
This is a trial before moving to the bigger cost of insulating 35 feet of exterior flue that faces the street (where appearance matters more).

For the make up air… I notice two extremes in the recommended solutions for make up air. On one side, there is a formula for determining make up air and some fancy fan gadgets (e.g. fan in a can). On the other side, the boiler manufacturer and some pros say, "Well, just open up the window." I can't leave the window open all the time because it gets too cold and we lose a ton of heat. I'm having a hard time getting a pro to look at it, and I feel like I should try to work with the original installer as much as possible. He doesn't seem to be as knowledgeable as he led me to believe, but he's young and I think he wants to become that knowledgeable…

So what I'm wondering is something in between: For make up air, can I rig in one of these for now, to more efficiently draw in cold (make up) air? I'd mount the duct to the window, add a vent on the outside, and point the fan side at the boiler? https://www.walmart.com/ip/Industrial-Utility-Blower/5858259815?adsRedirect=true

I know it wouldn't be connected to the boiler on/off switch. And I know I should figure out the formula. But… I'm trying to be sure what's what before any major expenditures because I think make up air will be my responsibility, while most other cycling issues will turn out to be the technician's.

For added context, the open window is about six feet from the boiler, with a 16x28 opening. When open, the wind blows straight to the boiler. In addition to the boiler, there are six 40 gallon gas water heaters in the same area, and two gas dryers on the other side of a pseudo-wall. The basement door has been updated, some drywall has been added to fire retard the ceiling, but the four basement windows are 100 year old sieves.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if you found out that the spill switch problem was tied to makeup air, and had little or nothing to do with the cold chimney.

    So…

    Solve the makeup air problem first. Then worry about putting a draught inducer on, if you need it. I'll bet you won't.

    And you need a LOT of makeup air, and it needs to be fan powered and interlocked with all the burners — a total of nine, if I read your description correctly.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    NewGuy
  • NewGuy
    NewGuy Member Posts: 27
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,374

    The manual will clearly show how much free air is needed for proper combustion and draft.

  • NewGuy
    NewGuy Member Posts: 27
    edited December 18

    I would do this several times over if I were in charge…

    Following the boiler manual, first I had to determine if my basement is a confined space "…defined by the National Fuel Gas Code as having a volume less than 50 cubic feet per 1000 BTU/hr input of all appliances installed in that space." My volume was 14.8 so, yes. That was a surprise.

    With a confined space (aka tightly built home), "Provide two openings into the boiler room, one near the floor and one near the ceiling. The top edge of the upper opening must be within 12” of the ceiling and the bottom edge of the lower opening must be within 12” of the floor."

    For an interior job, I'd need to do this into an adjacent room I don't have, or an air-infused attic + crawlspace I also don't have, or go outdoors. That's doable at 12" from the ceiling, but not 12" from the floor because it's a basement and below the ground…

    Ignoring that for a moment, based on this formula, "each opening must have a free cross sectional area of 1 square inch per 2000 BTU/hr of the total input of all gas fired appliances in the boiler room" it seems that I need two windows/vent areas of approximately 16" x 16". My one window is 32x28, with only one half (or one side) open (so my current opening is 16x28). That gives me 440 of the roughly 500 square inches of opening needed, but, again, it's in one spot, not two with one at the ceiling and the other at the floor.

    It doesn't say much more. I assume this means that a vent/electric damper connected to the boiler that opens when the boiler comes on is what is needed with 16x16 openings would work, (or, 18 inch round ducting or pipe.)

    What might compensate for the second hole not being so low? Can it enter the basement higher then come down to 12" above ground once inside?

    And an edit: Should the technician have measured for all this before installation?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    The tech. certainly should have at least thought about it…

    The low opening can come in from somewhere high up, and then be brought down with a nice duct to near the floor. However… the outside intake should be at least some distance from the high opening.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    NewGuy
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,295

    This sounds like it needs something like a "Fan in a Can", and probably the larger one. Or even 2.

    There would be a fair amount of control wiring to each burner to turn on the fan as needed. And you need someone who knows what they are doing.

    The young guy installer, if seeking experience, should look forward to this project. The "Can" instructions would walk him right thru this. You might go for 2.

    Depends upon where the burners are located in the basement.

    NewGuy
  • NewGuy
    NewGuy Member Posts: 27

    When you say "each burner," do you mean each appliance that is burning gas?

    At this point, 95% are in the same area. A boiler and six water heaters in one area, vs two small dryers in another.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,988

    I believe he does — I would — and your air supply has to consider the worst case, which is the whole lot of the going at once.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 11,295

    Add up the BTUH input of all the appliances.

    There is a limit on the amount that the "Fans" can supply, that is why it may require 2 cans. Maybe one for the boiler and one for WH's.

    Is there probably enough free air in the basement for the dryers to operate???

    If any of the larger burners have to operate then their fans would start as needed.

    NewGuy