Upstairs Radiators not heating up...
Hello all, new to the forum. I'll try and give a brief background.
I recently purchased my home this past summer. It is an older home originally built in 1895 and updated in the 1950s. There is a fuel oil hot water boiler in the basement and three zones and thermostats. The thermostats are located in the main living room area, in the dining room area, and in the basement, none upstairs. I am unsure what areas of the house are tied to what thermostat. The two main level thermostats seem to work and all the radiators on that floor are throwing heat. The previous owner seemed to regularly have it maintained and even though its old it all was working.
The issues:
The second floor radiators are not getting warm.
The dining room thermostat clicks when adjusted higher or lower but the room that it is in does not seem to get to temp.
So, I took the covers off of the upstairs radiators and have a key to bleed the air. It turns out that the bleeders are a flat head style screw and they are corroded. I sprayed a bit of PB blaster in them to soak and hopefully free up. One of the radiators upstairs was able to loosen the top fitting that the screw is in. I didn't take it all the way out but when it was loosened I didn't get any air or water coming out. I don't know if there isn't pressure there or if its clogged.
The previous owner slept downstairs so I'm not sure if this was ever addressed. The upstairs was an attic converted to a bigger bedroom, which we are using as a master. We are temporarily using a space heater at night if its too cold.
I'm looking for advise on what to do to get the upstairs radiators warm, and any given would greatly be appreciated!
Here is a picture of what the bleeders look like:
Comments
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a well fitting screwdriver, and a wrench for the valve body, more PB, Tap(aggresively gently, tap, tap, tap) on the screwdriver handle to shock the vent screw,
or try loosening the entire valve body, and look for venting air, or water, at the threads, loosen, don't remove completely, loosen slightly,
but first, at the boiler, what pressure do you see on the gage? post that picture,
known to beat dead horses0 -
It's not the bleeders we need to see — at least not just yet. What we do need to know is what pressure there is in the system, and how those upstairs radiators are fed (pumps? Zone valves?) and what controls whatever is feeding them.
The pressure should be easy enough — there should be a pressure and temperature gauge on the boiler. It may not be all that accurate, but it would be a start. The controls is a bit more of a problem — you have three thermostats, but at least one of them clicks but doesn't seem to do anything. You'll need some help on this — someone to fiddle the thermostats on and off, and someone down near the boiler to see what happens (if anything!), and to what. Cell phones are real handy to communicate…
While you are down there, a few photos always helps. Any gauges on the boiler, and one showing how the zones are plumbed… and a couple of sort of general ones so we can see the overall setup.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
ok I just snapped a few more pictures. I also just turned the basement zone up as well as it was turned way down. all 3 are set at 70 right now.
I do not think the gauge at the boiler works, after running the temp does not move
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Also, I can verify that the basement heat does work and nicely at that. After turning on all three zones simultaneously, the unit fired and ran for much longer than normal. (I'm assuming its because the basement was only 61 degrees and it needed to heat that zone) After the long burn the gauge did move and I took a picture of that. I also noticed these two pipes, that I believe lead to the radiators upstairs, are warm on the bottom 10 inches or so and as you feel higher it seems to be ambient room temp…
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Try adding some water and see if the pressure gauge moves. Should be about 12 psi cold. (Black numbers on the gauge)
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.0 -
so when I first bought the place, my father who is somewhat familiar with a boiler system noticed the valve above the boiler, near the basement ceiling. He said that it was an automatic fill valve that was tied into the water lines of the house. I'm not sure if that is correct or if there was a way to add water because of that. my assumption was that it was there for the purpose of keeping the system topped off automatically.
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Pressure regulator, however it only works if the cold water supply is applied to it. The feed water valve may be closed.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
basement, front room, and backside are what the three pump relays indicate
Back side of the boiler or house?
A new gauge would be helpful for both temperature and pressure readings
You at least need an accurate pressure gauge before you add fill water
Looks like s drain valve on the steel tank, maybe add a temporary gauge there
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
For one thing, you may simply be low on pressure, which may have led to problems with air in the upstairs radiators. This is solvable…
I note, however, that you have a compression tank — that lovely big blue grey tank hanging from the overhead. They are an excellent way to control pressure — don't let someone convince you that because it is old fashioned you need to change it — but they can get waterlogged. However, if when you the system heats up you don't see that much change in pressure — a few pounds is fine — it's OK and we can worry about it later, if at all. As @delcrossv suggested, try adding a little water and see if the gauge moves.
Now on controls. I'm intrigues. I wonder if, in fact, you actually have only two zones since I only see two pumps — and if the upstairs one may be controlled by only one of the two thermostats.
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0 -
I'll check that it is open next
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how hard would it be to change that gauge?
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I think there is three pumps no? The red one in the back is not a pump? There also are three thermostats in the house
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Get yourself one of these 0-30 psi water pressure gauges and some brass threaded adapters at your local Home Depot plumbing section to go from the 1/4" NPT thread on the gauge to the 3/4" Garden Hose Thread (GHT) drain valve on your expansion tank. Connect the gauge to the expansion tank drain valve and open the valve to get an accurate reading of water pressure in the system. Then add water to the system until you get 12 psi.
This is what I use to check our system pressure, because our boiler gauges are inaccurate.
You can get water pressure gauges that already have the garden hose thread fitting on them, but they tend to be 0-200 psi gauges which don't have good resolution at the low end of the scale, so don't get one of those.
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what about something like this? And thread it there and open that valve?
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That is correct. The 0-100 psi gauge you showed should work, even though the resolution on the low end isn't great. Thread it onto that valve hand tight, like a garden hose, and open the valve handle just a bit to get a pressure reading. You can leave the gauge on while you adjust the system pressure to 12 psi. Then close the valve and remove the gauge and save it for future pressure checks.
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Yes, that's perfect.
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Impossible for some, easy for others. All depends on skills and tools. Access to the pipe fittings may be poor.
National - U.S. Gas Boiler 45+ Years Old
Steam 300 SQ. FT. - EDR 347
One Pipe System0 -
If you have the handy hose gauge, you don't have to worry about replacing the one on the boiler.
I see you have an Airtrol boiler fitting, the other end of that pipe should be going to the corresponding Airtrol tank fitting on your compression tank.
Looks like this:
Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.1 -
UPDATE:
so, the fill valve was on for the regulator. I installed that pressure gauge and sure enough it was at 3-4 psi. so I checked it in other spots and the pressure in the basement mop sink was super high so I knew that it wasn't a lack of house pressure. Turns out, the regulator was stuck closed and not adding water to the system. I unscrewed the cap and sprayed some PB blaster under the rod and then reinstalled and then rocked the lever back and forth. I heard a click and then it started filling. I left the lever in the wide open spot for a few minutes as pressure rose. It reached about 12 1/2 lbs. and then I put the lever for the fill on the regulator back to where it was and called for heat and it ran. After running the pressure went up to about 15 1/2 psi. The pipes on the wall are nice and hot now and the one radiator upstairs in nice and warm but the other is not quite as warm. Now I believe if I bleed the both of them that I'll be able to get some air and then be good to go. Thank you all for all of the help and let me know if there is anything else I may be needing to do.
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Good job. As @delcrossv said, your expansion tank will work best with an Airtrol tank fitting (ATF) that is designed to prevent air-laden water from escaping the expansion tank and getting back into the system, where it can then bubble out into radiators.
You can get them new at supplyhouse.com, or get a new old stock one on eBay for half the cost. Beware that they come in different lengths, as indicated by the dash number. For example, an ATF-12 is sized for a 12-14 inch tank diameter. So measure your tank diameter and get an ATF with the corresponding dash number.
The ATF needs 3/4" diameter pipe to work properly, and it also needs to be pitched up at an angle. So the 1/2" straight pipe you now have to the expansion tank would need replacing.
Once installed correctly, you should never need to bleed your radiators again, as long as you maintain proper pressure.
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