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What should I learn about my 1940s tankless coil oil boiler? (General Motors Delco DB-4S)

CoachBoilermaker
CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347
edited July 31 in Strictly Steam

Just moved. House has 2016 Central AC

Vintage tankless coil Oil boiler. Very old. Works fine.

General Motors Delco DB-4S

Steam heat radiators, I think.

11 pics

https://imgur.com/a/oil-boiler-tankless-coil-advice-WFbadvv

Oil guys come 2x a year to service it.

Should I learn how to service it? Change tip/electrodes? Change oil filter?

Boiler lets off a lot of heat and Basement is always warm/hot.

Any tips to manage the oil use? Are there settings? Reduce water temp?

Like can I turn it off all day and turn it on before showers?

Summer vs. winter tips?

Old school Thermostat currently set at 60F in summer.

Should I upgrade to a modern thermostat?

There is also a weekly bleed/drain procedure, using sight glass level, but I forgot what owner told me. The yellow handle in pic #1 and the red faucet near bucket in pic #2?

When this beast sadly dies, what is the upgrade cycle? I'm tempted to keep it simple and just replace plug/play with modern oil burner, for max simplicity. Bad idea?

Any general comments, feedback, opinions, tips are welcome!

https://imgur.com/a/oil-boiler-tankless-coil-advice-WFbadvv

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Comments

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    Oh my. You've gotten your mileage out of that old beast.

    Yes, the yellow handle you note should be opened around once a week in the winter when the boiler is running, and allowed to run until the water isn't muddy. Doesn't have to be clear — but shouldn't be muddy. Then use the feed valve from the water supply to bring the boiler water level in the sight glass back up to about the middle of the glass.

    And yes, you can turn it off during the day and a while just before showers. You'll save some oil that way, though not a whole lot.

    What would save you significant oil particularly in the summer is to replace the tankless coil with a freestanding water heater — could be oil, gas, electric, or even heat pump — and let the steam boiler go cold in the summer — and between heat calls in the winter.

    Now a couple of other things. Changing the old reliable thermostat to a modern one isn't going to change oil use. Keep the old one. It works, which is more than can be said for the modern ones after a few years.

    I don't recommend trying to learn how to service and adjust an oil burner to most people — including myself. To do it right takes some specialized measuring equipment to get the settings right — you can't do it by eye or ear — and the training to use the equipment.

    Now. That old thing is not doing you any favours. Your best bet to reducing fuel costs is going to be to replace it with a new modern oil burner. It's not a hard job, but your system is steam, and the average HVAC contractor is pretty clueless when it comes to steam. There are, however, very knowledgeable and honest steam guys out there — if you let us know where you are located, we might be able to suggest one or two.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    bburd
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,387

    Well, the oil burner itself was upgraded- Delco used to make their own burners. The Carlin 100CRD came later- it is a flame-retention type. It can stay there until the boiler is replaced. Whoever disconnected the solenoid oil valve, however, should not be in the business.

    @CoachBoilermaker , where are you located? Does the house have natural gas service?

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Jamie,
    Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

    To review, please be exact

    1. turn yellow handle and water will go into bucket?
    2. Where is the "feed valve from the water supply to bring the boiler water level in the sight glass back up to about the middle of the glass." ?

    How do I turn the boiler off?
    Any risk or downside?
    Wow, so it won't even save much oil being off all day?
    I guess it doesn't burn much oil unless hot water is actually being used?

    replace the tankless coil with a freestanding water heater

    Not sure what this is.
    I just see one large green unit. (boiler?)
    Is the tankless coil part of the green box?
    I'm not sure there is room for a tank as the green box takes up most of the space.

    So, you suggest thinking about installing a new oil burner (and water heater)
    I'm guessing that is $10k so I guess I should calc some break even target.
    No idea what the curren cost/usage even is.

    I live where there are lots of 1920s homes
    So there should be HVAC steam folks still around.

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    The Carlin says 1971 Copyright on it.

    What is the solenoid oil valve, and how do you know it's disconnected? What do you think the logic was?

    Pretty sure no gas service in my location.

  • clammy
    clammy Member Posts: 3,163

    Replace that beast .That boiler was installed when heating oil was cheap as water . You would most likely cut your fuel consumption down by 40 to 50 percent by having a separate heating boiler and oil fired or better yet a electric hot water heater. Others may say to keep it and brick it up and tune the burner for optimum performace but as time marches on the price of labor ,equipment and materials rise the one thing is they will never drop or get any lower then where they are now and who knows if in a few year if and what will be available . If natural gas is available i would think of upgrading to gas from oil ,if sticking to oil be sure to get tank insurance other wise keep your fingers crossed especially if its a buried tank , . all is not as easy as one may think ,be sure to have your new boiler sized correctly by a edr of your radiators or a valid heat lose be performed also your existing chimney should be inspected to ensure that the liner is there is one is in good shape or i will need to have a liner installed . Again that boiler is ancient and a newer one would surely be much more eff and definitely weigh about 1/2 of that beast which is less mass to heat . In the past i ve removed and replace those older wet based oil boiler and stuck w oil and the home owners where amazed at the drop in fuel use especially w a tankless coil to a oil dealer that coil is like money in the bank .

    peace and good luck clammy

    R.A. Calmbacher L.L.C. HVAC
    NJ Master HVAC Lic.
    Mahwah, NJ
    Specializing in steam and hydronic heating

    jimna01
  • leonz
    leonz Member Posts: 1,339

    Boilermaker? Perdue?

    Please listen to Br. Jamie and Clammy. Being a novice, I love seeing these old boilers; you should definitely keep your steam heat and when you can do it replace it with a new cast iron steam boiler and add drop header to make dry steam more efficiently.

    We can help you find a steam licensed plumber in your area or you can ask your local plumbing inspector who is licensed to do steam boiler installation work.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    I understand Westchester County. I suggested @JohnNY , and I know there are others… Anyone?

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,502

    When I bought this house in 1981 that was the voiler it came with, as it happems it was also the boiler I had in my apartment. I knew the thing would run in the sunner so I had a gas hot water tank installed and mothballed the boilers hat water coil.

    With just me in the house I use 5-6 therms a month for hot water so by bill was less than 1/4 what it would have cost for summer hot water.

    Bob

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Thanks for your ideas.

    So, if I replace/update, I should consider
    a) heating boiler and b) oil/electric hot water heater.

    Should the new (a) heating boiler still be oil or electric?

    I do not think gas is available.

    Good point about fading labor skills for old equipment
    You're saying that a new modern oil boiler will have lower labor needs/costs?
    And will have more labor pool who can service, since more popular than obscure 40s boiler.

    Oil tank is above ground in basement.

    Boiler sizing? I assume to HVAC shop will know this?

    What is a "wet based oil boiler"?

    You're saying replacing with modern smaller oil boiler will reduce costs.
    Even more savings if I add hot water heater/tank?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    So, you still have the old boiler for winter steam heat, but you're saying you added a hot water tank for summer hot water (and turn off the boiler when you do not need home heating?)

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347
    edited July 31

    I watched a video to understand idea of external hot water tank

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    @HVACNUT

    @ScottSecor

    Which makes most sense? (or least sense)?

    A) Keep old oil 1940s boiler. Just Add water tank (like video)

    B) Just Replace with new oil boiler. No water tank

    C) Get new oil boiler AND add water tank

    https://imgur.com/a/oil-boiler-tankless-coil-advice-WFbadvv

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    Change out old oil boiler for new steam boiler. Add an electric or oil fired hot water tank independent of the boiler

    I might add, though, that if the old boiler is still heating your house satisfactorily, you don't have to do both at once. A new electric or oil-fired hot water tank will cut your oil usage. Unfortunately, with your electric rates, an electric water heater will not cut your cash payment for energy — just shift the payment from the oil company to the electric company. Sorry about that… an oil fired hot water heater would, but there are complications with that which may make that an unattractive option in your situation.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • bburd
    bburd Member Posts: 1,043
    edited July 31

    A heat pump electric water heater would drastically cut the power consumption compared to a standard electric resistance water heater and would certainly reduce your overall energy bills. They have become increasingly popular. You may even be eligible for rebates from your utility company to cover part of the cost.


    Bburd
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Can you rank best bang/buck?

    Sounds like replacing the vintage oil boiler for a new one is main/first/best move?

    After that, option of adding oil-fired hot water tank for added savings?

    You then said oil fired hot water heater is complicated. Is that different than a tank?

    You feel electric water tank is a wash, so don't bother?

    My electric was 11cents/kwh supply & 18cents/kwh delivery.

    So, my basic plan should be new oil boiler with option of water tank?

    But, I could keep the old boiler and add the tank only.

    But, if I'm gonna do it, I'd rather do both at once for easier pipe routing once.

    Adding tank and then later replacing boiler that is smaller could create more pipe route/adjustment work?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Change out old oil boiler for new steam boiler. Add an electric or oil fired hot water tank independent of the boiler

    You used the word independent.

    In the video I posted, This Old House, the tank he adds is connected to the main oil boiler. Were you referring to something else entirely? Or did you mean that the tank is external to the boiler, but is still auxilliary to the boiler, connected to it.

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    I meant — and mean — the tank is completely independent of the boiller. The problem with going for an oil fired independent tank is going to be in the exhaust — and without looking at the chimney, I couldn't say what might or might not work.

    The heat pump water heater does save energy. It is also very expensive.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,340
    edited July 31

    How did I get dragged into this? I was just sitting here MMOB when I saw my name.

    First things first. If there's retort cement holding any part of that boiler together (cleanout doors), or keeping the burner in place, it's history.

    You've got steam. I don't see much steam anymore, and I've never seen one in real life, but from what I hear on HH, the MegaSteam is the only way to go if you have oil.

    Heavily vet the contractor. (The I&O manual is your friend.) Have maintenance done yearly by an oil pro who's also no slouch with steam. Not sure if @JohnNY goes to Westchester.

    As far as domestic hot water needs, there's a plethora of choices. I believe the MegaSteam even offers tankless coil.(Not that I recommend it.) Do some math and figure what works for you. Or ask people HERE to do the math for you. For some reason, they get all giddy about math.

    FWIW

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    If the boiler is operating safely and your are having it serviced as you posted there is no need to instantly replace it.

    Ask around and search this site for 2 or 3 good contractors that know steam and get a couple of quotes and start saving for a new boiler

    Also have you house insulation, windows and doors checked for energy efficiency. That will also save fuel

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Ok, so a totally indep. oil fired water tank may have exhaust issues. May or may not be an option for me.

    But, an option for sure is an external indirect water tank connected to the oil boiler. That is a common add-on to an oil boiler, like in the video?

    But, water tank comes after getting a new oil boiler in the first place, right? That's my first move, when I do something. Modern new oil boiler.

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Interesting you've never seen steam.

    Lots of old houses in my area have radiators old school

    Thanks for the ideas

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Yes, boiler is in active service. Working.

    Insulation was done with new siding, attic insulation new, new windows and doors

  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 16,501

    @CoachBoilermaker That is good. The next step is to size the new boiler based on the capacity of the installed radiation. We can help with that and there is information on this site for doing that.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,387

    I would first install an independent water heater and disable the control that keeps the steam boiler hot over the summer. Have a pro do these. This will eliminate the need for the boiler to be kept hot, and reduce your oil consumption. Bang for the buck.

    Then replace the steam boiler. Note that you don't have to do both right away, as others have also said. Doing maybe the water heater this year and the new boiler next year will spread out the cost.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 6,340

    I've seen plenty of steam. Just not in the last 10 years or so. I've just never seen the Burnham MegaSteam boiler in action.

    Yes your boiler works, and is somewhat safe (45 second primary, obsolete controls), but like the rigs that still spew black clouds on every upshift… why? It's 2024.

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,502

    i set the dteam boilers T-stat at 50 when it gets warm and with the domestic hot water control of the boiler disconnected it won't run until I set the T-stat back up to it's normal setting. My gas hot water tank hanles my domestic hot water all year long. If I didn't have gas in the house I'd look at the electric heat pump water heaters. A buddy has had one for years and he's very happy with the money it saves him.

    Bob

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Wouldn't it be easier for layout/config to do both at the same time?

    The old boiler is almost walled in and there may not be room for a water tank.

    Not liking the idea of putting water tank with old large boiler in mind, and then getting rid of boiler later. Might be easier to do water tank location when you know the newer smaller boiler's size? Boiler first, than you have more options for location of water tank?

    Does that make sense, what I am saying?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    No gas hookup for me.

    You don't like an indirect water tank connected to oil boiler?

    But, that would still be better than current tankless coil, right?

  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    You haven't seen an oil boiler powering old school steam radiators in 10 years?

    Where did they all go? Do people remove them when they modernize HVAC?

    What do they typically replace steam radiators with? Mini-splits?

  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,502

    An indirect works especially if you use a ton of hot water. The boiler will still have to run in the summer and it costs more money than a heat pump water heater. A heay pump might not work well if installed in a small space that does not draw air from outside it's walled off utility space.

    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    Very often they are replaced with mini-splits, and the customer is miserable ever after. The reason is that steam is, honestly, a little more difficult and time consuming to get right, and many firms no longer have, or are willing to pay at any rate, the craftsmen who can do the work.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    LRCCBJ
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,387

    Pulling out radiators in favor of forced-air is another thing that proves you can't fix stupid.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    delcrossv
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    I am inclined to make the least radical changes.

    Will try to leave steam radiators and keep oil boiler.

    Maybe update the oil boiler, and maybe add indirect tank at that time

    Seems reasonable?

  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 24,878

    Sounds good to me.

    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347

    Jamie,

    Thanks for your time and advice with my questions.

    You're a good man sharing your knowledge online.

    Everyone here, in fact

    bburd
  • AdmiralYoda
    AdmiralYoda Member Posts: 684

    @CoachBoilermaker I vote replace your boiler with a properly sized modern unit like a Burnham MegaSteam, one of the highest quality oil boilers. I also recommend getting an electric heat pump water heater. I have one and it works great and barely uses any electricity with our family of four. The boiler can stay 100% off in the summer.

    This investment can last another 20-40+ years so now isn't the time to try and save 5-10% only to pay it back ten fold due to a poor install. Have a person well versed in steam check out your system and make recommendations. This site will be able to help you find somebody.

    Most HVAC companies don't like steam and don't understand it, so you'll end up with an expensive install that doesn't quite work right and you'll be back here asking for help. You'll have to spend more $$$ in the long run.

    BobC
  • CoachBoilermaker
    CoachBoilermaker Member Posts: 347
    edited August 7
    1. Get modern oil burner. (Burnham MegaSteam)
    2. Elec. heat pump for water
    3. Hire quality HVAC company that is experienced in oil burner / steam heat. Don't skimp here. Hire the best for labor.

    I'm in NY, TONS of 1920s homes around here, and should be able to find a shop well versed in steam heat/radiator finned heat.

  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 17,387

    @CoachBoilermaker , we do NOT discuss pricing on this forum. See:

    https://heatinghelp.com/forum-user-manual

    You need to edit out the pricing from your post. Now.

    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    HeatingHelp.com