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Understanding tankless recirculating water heaters

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Comments

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 665
  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46
    edited July 22

    Got it. That's what nice about using threaded parts.

    Do you have any thoughts on the PEX rings I got from Amazon?

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 665

    Cinch rings will work as long as they are meant for 3/4" pex. I see millimeter on the package. Be 100% sure they are correct to use on 3/4" pex pipe. The black crimp type rings (they are really copper) is what you already have in the house. I prefer them over cinch. It gets to looking like a mess mixing connection methods. The cinch tool works for other size cinch rings so It could be useful for other plumbing projects.

  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    I reordered the proper tool and 3/4 inch copper rings. I should have known better buying the cheap tool kit.

  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 514

    Yeah, you want crimp rings. They're actually tempered copper.

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007AGMFF0

    Ghost_Rider357
  • DCContrarian
    DCContrarian Member Posts: 514

    For occasional use, I find the handiest overall Pex tool is the block type, it fits anywhere and you're less likely to mangle the rings. It is a lot slower than the crimper style.

    https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/plumbing-tools/pex-tools/masterforce-reg-pex-block-style-crimp-tool/sp2805/p-1522996252121-c-8609.htm?exp=false

  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,864

    that’s better on the order.

    I much prefer the black colored copper crimp rings to those pinch type rings

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Ghost_Rider357
  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    I regret every time I post too soon. After switching the check valve I get nearly scalding hot water from both of the bathrooms that have been causing problems.

    The nylon tape is situated to support the weight, but it really doesn't need it.

  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    Thanks for everyone's help!

  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    Holding judgement till tomorrow.

    Teemok
  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    I feel pretty confident that the main issue has been fix. Not sure what to make of the inability of my hired plumbers to not suggest changing the check valve before the cartridges and then actually suggesting that we need to open up all the lines and blow air through them to identify them, looking for a crossover.

  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46
    edited July 27

    I will still have some longer wait times here and there because of the programming.

    Later I want to learn more about setting up a push button recirculating pump. What would be perfect, if it's even possible a system about to turn on using some kind of a remote.

  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 3,503

    Hi, ACT D Mand Systems is the inventor of demand controlled reicirc pumping. You might want to have a look at their site.

    Yours, Larry

    Ghost_Rider357
  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 665
    edited July 28

    I believe you have a pump in place in the heater so controlling with a button is the aim. You don't want it to run for any longer than is needed to prevent wear on the heater or pipes.

    I've hacked in the unit below before. It is not as easy as plug and play but it's simple enough for those with the skills needed. How well the wireless works for your application is a thing to consider. It runs the pump for 5 mins. when the button is pressed. It is not adjustable for shorter times. If you know how long it takes for hot water to begin to arrive at the remote location and you turn on a hot water tap or shower before the tankless heater turns off due to reaching its set point in the recirculation line, there will be no cold water sandwich created. If you wait too long the recirc. line gets hot and the heater will turn off. Then when you draw hot water the heater has a short delay in turning on. Some cold water is let through the heater unheated and you get a brief temperature fluctuation heading to you in the hot water line. For most, once they understand what's happening, it is not a big deal. The clever hit the button and wait just the right amount of time to open the faucet and they get consistent hot water.

    https://blackhawksupply.com/products/aquamotion-amk-wb

    Ghost_Rider357
  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    I looked at the link. It looks very promising. Very affordable. I'm thinking it will work with or without the onboard recirculation engaged. Not sure if my wife will take to a new process. Until we get use to it I can keep it as is.

    Using this program setting, I'm using it doesn't work as expected. Should be recirculating constantly from 6am-10pm but it doesn't but I know it it did work correctly my gas bill would be higher.

    The other thing I will want to do when I tackle this job. I will add a filter on the water intake line. This might help keep debris out of the line should the city do something down the line. I've heard about that.

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 665

    @Ghost_Rider357 It's very hard to advise you on how to proceed. Using the factory control is the best and easiest option. I'm not familiar with the logic control on that BW tankless what the setting are and I don't know if your pump is functional. A must is a complete recirc. line air purge, as I described previously. The line will not circulate at all, even with a working pump, with air in the line. If there's no air in the line and the pump works, the recirc. line should get hot once the circulation control time period is active. How long it stays on and what cycles and what temperatures measured where are is questions for tech support. It looks like that unit has a set up flow valve calibration procedure. It also has multiple recirculation control modes. The mode needs to be set correctly for your system. One mode uses an external NTC sensor and another an external aqua stat. External meaning a part mounted on the recirulation line. One of these parts will need to be installed to keep the line properly hot. No schedule will work until the unit has the proper time is set in it. I recommend reading the manual well, develop a good understanding of what you think is the right programing is and then confirm that with tech support.

    Ghost_Rider357
  • Ghost_Rider357
    Ghost_Rider357 Member Posts: 46

    It seems to me that that what I'm continuing to experience, occasional daily longer waits. This is likely something to do with the programming. The only recirculating options are to limit the time of day the recirculation is active. There are like 8 different options. We chose 6am-10pm but for whatever reason it falls short at different times during the day. In the morning and evening it is usually spot on. Mid day can be iffy. I often get done with a bike ride or mowing the lawn and get a cold shower. During which it gets hot after a few minutes.

    I think the device you posted above might work to give me the option to push a button to start the recycling process. If water flows freely through the water heater I don't see why it won't work. I'm thinking this should work if the internal pump obstructed the flow it would also limit the hot water pressure.

    I have contacted tech support several times. Based on all the issues the other home owners have had including us. I'd say it's likely that the programming is poorly designed. I will contact both BW and BH supply before I move forward with the idea. In the meantime I don't really mind having to wait a little while at times. Otherwise I'll be wasting more gas and putting more hours on the water heater.

  • Teemok
    Teemok Member, Email Confirmation Posts: 665

    @Ghost_Rider357 Just a heads up. The push button device I posted above is a stand alone electrical control. I don't know if you can use it with your heaters existing internal pump or with an added external pump. Your heater has flow control valves and a small tank involved inside it. It may be more complex than just turning the pump on and off, It also might be just that simple. Using the stand alone control requires someone with the tech skills to determine if it can or be done correctly. It's best to try to make the stock unit work as it was designed to. Your heater has more than a few different installer level mode settings for different types of recirulation control. Two of them involve an external sensor or a thermostatic switch. One of external parts sense the temperature at a place on the recirulation piping away from the heater. There may be other setting that change the control behavior or the water flow path or both for a given type of system. The senor or switch tells the unit when the recirc. line has heated up so it knows when to turn off. It likely then waits for a given off period until it cycles the pump on again reheating the line cycling like this during the timed heating period. How hot it makes the line and how long it turns off and when in that repeating cycle you happen to draw hot water will determine what you experience. The problem you were experiencing and correct recirc. mode settings are different things. You haven't said if you have purged the air. It's unclear to me if the recirc. line does sometimes heat or not. If your time is set correctly in the unit and you know when it turns on in the morning you can be there for that event. Listen for the heater to fire up on its own to heat up the line. You can confirm the line gets hot by feeling it a few ft away from the unit. It should only take a few minutes. If the unit fire up but the line never gets hot, something is wrong beyond programing.

    Ghost_Rider357