Vintage 1909 Gravity Hot Water Heating System
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johnlobb said:What a fabulous system! We once had a home in Trenton, MI that had a gravity hot water boiler with millivolt controls. We had heat during any power outage! The comfort of that system was great. What town in Michigan do you live? I would love to see your system.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Is there a way to determine if your system is millivolt? I’ve heard about that ability but I’m not sure mine can do that. And I am in Jackson. You are welcome to visit anytime. 😃TheUpNorthState88 said:johnlobb said:What a fabulous system! We once had a home in Trenton, MI that had a gravity hot water boiler with millivolt controls. We had heat during any power outage! The comfort of that system was great. What town in Michigan do you live? I would love to see your system.
look at the gas controls. is there a transformer or does the thermostat and safeties only connect to the gas valve? in your case the gas valve was replaced with a modern combination valve. it looks like 24v to me but i'd need some better pictures.
Since it has the old basso switch it is almost certainly 24vac.
Looks like it has a mercury switch pilot safety so it is 24 vac if that is the case.1 -
Kitties love steam radiators with metal radiator covers too.0
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Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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24-volt for sure.All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting1 -
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@Erin Holohan Haskell ?reggi said:You can add these to your documents..
All Steamed Up, Inc.
Towson, MD, USA
Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
Oil & Gas Burner Service
Consulting0 -
reggi said:You can add these to your documents..
Which now got me wondering when Uncle George (what I call the original owner of my home, lived 54 years in the home) was designing the home, what spoke out to him choosing this one over one of American Radiator Co dining room radiators (since most were Arco models already). Just fun stuff! 115 years later and I’m glad he went with this Jarecki one!Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Scored myself my own combustion analyzer on Ebay which arrived today. Felt like a kid on Christmas. Calibrated and ran three test. 77% efficiency on a 87 year old boiler! Everything else checked out well too. 😎
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Hi @TheUpNorthState88 , I was able to resize your pictures. Really like your home and heating system. Thank you for sharing it with us.
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@WMno57 Thank you! I have no idea why my iPhone posted those so oddly.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Awesome system and fully original and in tact! I envy you! One question about the piping on the Honeywell Heat Generator. It almost looks like a bypass is tee’d in to expand directly to the expansion tank. Can anyone elaborate what might be going on here? Haven’t seen it done this way before. Also, if the heat generator is operating correctly do you ever take the water temp up above 180 degrees? Thanks for the background and great photos!
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@sopcopotoptop During the polar vortex this past January, the boiler temp gauge made it up to 190 F. The boiler was on for at least 3-4 hours to make it that hot. Typically on a "normal" winter day the highest it goes before the thermostat is satisfied is between 150-170 F range. Very rare do I even make it to 180 F.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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Another question: As for your expansion tank in the attic, does the system pipe any heated water into the tank to keep it from freezing? I didn’t see any piping indicating that but maybe your attic is heated. I would suppose that would bypass the heat generator and not allow the pressure to rise to that 10pm? Just curious and trying to figure it all out. Thanks!
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Attic expansion tank is a big deal in my opinion. Air ends up there so no messing with individual bleeds?
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Or air gets absorbed there and end up other places.
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The open to atmosphere expansion tank is either a horizontal steel saddle tank or a vertical steel tank. The hot water riser pipe feeds hot water to the open to atmosphere expansion tank.
If the attic is uninsulated or poorly insulated you use a U piping method connected to the bottom tapping of the vertical steel expansion tank that rests on planks set on the trusses where the piping is set up with the riser on the top floor reaching the attic space and then it is met with an elbow that connects with a short nipple that is connected to a T.
The is Tee connected to a short nipple riser that is threaded into a union or the base of the steel expansion tank resting on the planks.
A short nipple is connected to the drop pipe with a second elbow and then to the short drop pipe to the take offs feeding the radiators on the top floor and then the drop pipes on the top floor radiators to feed the lower floor radiators and then drain back to the boiler sump.
Both the vertical and horizontal open to air expansion tank are protected with either a riser pipe passing through the roof which has an elbow and short nipple and then a second elbow with a screen in it to allow excess water to rise up and fall on the roof and into the rain gutter.
In this method of using a saddle mounted steel expansion tank you would connect the riser to one of the tapping's in the side of the tank using just the riser pipe a union and short nipple and connect the drop pipe to the closest side tapping using short nipples and union to allow the hot water to move quickly to the drop pipe.
The vent pipe riser would be connected to the one of the tanks opposing tapping's and piped through the roof where it would use an elbow, a short nipple, a second elbow and then a screen to keep vermin out of the pipe; you would fill the tank and wait for the water to come out of the roof vent riser and then stop filling it.
With either tank mounting method you could pipe a drain pipe to the basement floor drain or a laundry sink and simply open the fill valve and wait for the excess water to drain from the tank to the floor drain or the laundry sink.
You would want to wrap the tank and piping in insulation if there is no insulation in the attic.
Mr. Holohan explains this in great detail and has illustrations of it in his book Classic Hydronics. If you buy this book he will show you how this method of piping is done with a bottom fed gravity system or a top fed gravity hot water system which eliminates air bubbles and slugs of air in the piping.
Either of the top fed or bottom fed gravity hot water piping methods will provide slow even heat for you using gravity with no circulators. Mr. Holohan shows you how to do this in his book Classic Hydronics and his illustrations also show how to plumb the radiators with monoflow tees and shut off valves to regulate the amount of heat in a room or open space.
As long as you read Classic hydronics you will understand that the gravity hot water heat method acts like a conveyor belt and reading more about how the top fed method of gravity hot water heating eliminates the need to bleed air from the radiators as there is no air in the water because the water fills the radiators from the top down and as the system fills it allows the air in the system to vent through the open to atmosphere steel expansion tank and out the roof vent pipe.
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How does a closed tank absorb air? Usually other way around?
Toronto was big on HHW and there were successful gravity systems for multistory buildings. High point expansion tank under vacuum and overhead distribution. Expensive? Compare expense of fancy tank installation with steam traps for each radiator.
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Attic expansion tanks have an open vent to the atmosphere, at least in residential systems.
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Generally but there's cadillac systems for some. Same goes for steam.
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What is great about a gravity hot water heating system is you can have a circulator pushing hot water up a multistory system to a pneumatic storage tank open to atmosphere with a float switch and have simple gravity hot water heat for the multistory building.
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It isn't gravity if there is a circulator. Gravity systems existed because the circulator hadn't been invented yet.
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I fully understand that.
I am just mentioning gravity can be used to its advantage in tall buildings over three stories tall by using a small centrifugal pump to push the water up into a nurse tank in a top floor to allow the hot water to be used in a top fed method.
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A steel compression tank is used with an Internal Air Separator or air scoop that is piped to an airtrol valve that allows the hot water with air bubbles to rise into the steel compression tank that has a 1/3 air 2/3 water ratio in it and the air bubbles dissolve into the air blanket covering the water in the steel compression tank and the cool water with no air bubbles in it drops back into the water flow.
The airtrol valve is a one piece casting that has two chambers to allow the hot water with air bubbles to rise past the cooler water that is dropping back into the water flow from thew boiler. The airtrol valve has a copper dip tube to allow the correct amount of water and air to be left in the tank when it is filled by draining excess water from the steel compression tank when it is filled or refilled.
An open to air steel expansion tank is even easier as the airtrol valve simply lets any trapped air exit the water and rise into the open to air tank water volume and escape.
Knowing what I know now I would have never let them remove the simple to use open to air(atmospheric) saddle mounted expansion tank when they installed my hand fed wood and coal boiler as it could also be used with my coal stoker boiler as well and I would have never been without heat.
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love the attic utility sink next to expansion tank. Love old gravity systems. Simplicity and function. Most of our older gravity systems had Roberts Gordon atmospheric conversion burners on them. Still think I have one of the last sets of ceramic diffuser plates anywhere around here. Pretty interesting to see what was, what is and what will be.
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I absolutely love the simplicity and how quiet the system operates. The fact I have no circulators and it is pure physics in play here. And the addition of the Honeywell heat generator absolutely is doing its job as intended. When my boiler fires up, after 30 mins, I can touch each radiator and feel some warmth. Even my one copper fin tubed baseboard is giving off some warmth.
Lifelong Michigander
-Willie
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