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Economite issues.

brandonf
brandonf Member Posts: 205
Boiler won't fire up. Come downstairs and the fan on the burner is running but no flame. 
I noticed the pilot was out so I relit the pilot.
Flipped the switch and I have a pilot and I have a blower but still no flame.
Im guessing the low water cut-off and the pressuretrol must be working since they are allowing the blower to kick on. 
Bad gas valve?  
Any help is greatly appreciated
thank you in advance. 
Homeowner, Entrepreneur, Mechanic, Electrician,

"The toes you step on today are connected to the butt you'll have to kiss tomorrow". ---Vincent "Buddy" Cianci

Comments

  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,418
    Switch the burner to on...
    rick in Alaska
  • brandonf
    brandonf Member Posts: 205
    kcopp said:
    Sorry about the pic.  I did, still nothing. 

    Homeowner, Entrepreneur, Mechanic, Electrician,

    "The toes you step on today are connected to the butt you'll have to kiss tomorrow". ---Vincent "Buddy" Cianci
  • brandonf
    brandonf Member Posts: 205
    I wiggled the switch and it fired up. Seems odd that it would have that much play in it.
    Homeowner, Entrepreneur, Mechanic, Electrician,

    "The toes you step on today are connected to the butt you'll have to kiss tomorrow". ---Vincent "Buddy" Cianci
    kcopp
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    Has anyone done a combustion test on that burner? The E20 is not a flame-retention burner, and the boiler was designed for one.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    kcoppmattmia2MaxMercyMad Dog_2
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,452
    could be the thermocouple
  • tim smith
    tim smith Member Posts: 2,752
    edited April 2022
    I bet on end switch of burner motor. Just did one day b4 yesterday. Fasco d454 motor. Unless in fact you did not have valve lever in on position.
  • brandonf
    brandonf Member Posts: 205
    Steamhead said:
    Has anyone done a combustion test on that burner? The E20 is not a flame-retention burner, and the boiler was designed for one.
    No combustion tests. 
    What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.
    Homeowner, Entrepreneur, Mechanic, Electrician,

    "The toes you step on today are connected to the butt you'll have to kiss tomorrow". ---Vincent "Buddy" Cianci
    Mad Dog_2
  • brandonf
    brandonf Member Posts: 205
    tim smith said:
    I bet on end switch of burner motor. Just did one day b4 yesterday. Fasco d454 motor. Unless in fact you did not have valve lever in on position.
    It was the lever I'm an idiot. 
    Homeowner, Entrepreneur, Mechanic, Electrician,

    "The toes you step on today are connected to the butt you'll have to kiss tomorrow". ---Vincent "Buddy" Cianci
    Mad Dog_2
  • EdTheHeaterMan
    EdTheHeaterMan Member Posts: 7,713
    edited October 2022
    brandonf said:


    No combustion tests. 
    What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.

    Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler. That said, I'm guessing that it has worked fine for some time now so, if it ain't broke don't fix it

    But @Steamhead could always find something better to spend your money on!

    Edward F Young. Retired HVAC ContractorSpecialized in Residential Oil Burner and Hydronics
    Mad Dog_2
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796

    brandonf said:


    No combustion tests. 
    What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.

    Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler. That said, I'm guessing that it has worked fine for some time now so, if it ain't broke don't fix it

    But @Steamhead could always find something better to spend your money on!

    I bet a combustion test on that burner in that boiler would show elevated CO levels. I've seen the same thing with the E20 and the Wayne P250/P265 in similar boilers. Switching to a burner such as Carlin EZ-Gas or Midco EC series cured the problem. @brandonf , where are you located? Let's get this thing tested.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    Mad Dog_2
  • WMno57
    WMno57 Member Posts: 1,249

    Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler.

    Got it. But are Brandon's and my Economites more like a Mack Triplex or a Muncie Rock Crusher? :D
    I've heard the term "Flame Retention Burner" often on this forum from you and @Steamhead. I have a lot of questions.
    • Does it have something to do with the shape and direction of the flame within the combustion chamber?
    • What is the history of Midco, the Economite and Flame Retention Burners?
    • Were they a better design for some older obsolete type of boiler.
    • Easier to manufacture years ago?
    • Easier to install back in the day before modern combustion analyzers?
    • Something that would run before the advent of computer controls and circuit boards?
    I find this topic interesting because I'm a bit of a history geek and gearhead. Did you guys know that it took GM 40 years to get Fuel Injection right? The Rochester Ramjet was offered for 9 years from 1957 to 1965. There were three generations within that time period. None of them worked well. The fuel injected LS engine was IMO the first time they got it right. Late 1990s. I think we'll see the same with Heat Pumps. Some Lemons in the near future.
    I really do appreciate all the knowledge shared on this site. Thank you in advance.
    I DIY.
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,452
    A Flame retention burner (weather oil or gas) uses higher air pressure and increased air velocity to better mix air and fuel. This causes a more compact flame usually with a higher temperature and a cleaner burn.

    Flame retention burners are usually noisier.

    Older boilers with larger flue passages could operate with most any burner.

    Newer boilers with smaller more restrictive flue passages may need the higher static pressure of a flame retention burner to move the combustion gasses through the boiler.

    Non flame retention burners may not burn well in a modern boiler
    WMno57Mad Dog_2SuperTech
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796
    edited October 2022

    A Flame retention burner (weather oil or gas) uses higher air pressure and increased air velocity to better mix air and fuel. This causes a more compact flame usually with a higher temperature and a cleaner burn.

    Flame retention burners are usually noisier.

    Older boilers with larger flue passages could operate with most any burner.

    Newer boilers with smaller more restrictive flue passages may need the higher static pressure of a flame retention burner to move the combustion gasses through the boiler.

    Non flame retention burners may not burn well in a modern boiler

    To add to this- the term "flame-retention" describes the way the flame is "locked on" to the firing head. This results in a very stable, compact flame, unlike on an older burner where the flame would "float" in the firebox. It also needs less excess air to produce a clean flame, increasing efficiency.

    @WMno57 , the E20 and similar Economites were descended from Midco's "Lo-Blast" conversion burners. These were designed for changing coal-fired boilers to gas, and IIRC were mounted in the ash pit of these boilers. Somewhere I have a brochure describing the Lo-Blast, which I believe also shows some early Economites.

    Midco's current model conversion burner is the EC, which should run well in that Peerless.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
    WMno57Mad Dog_2
  • hyper1also
    hyper1also Member Posts: 2
    Look, I have an e20 burner and it just keeps running. No matter what I do cannot stop it from blowing unless I turn power off. Could not get pilot light to stay on once I switched to on position. Changed out t-coupler and same thing ? What have I got going on ?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,796

    Look, I have an e20 burner and it just keeps running. No matter what I do cannot stop it from blowing unless I turn power off. Could not get pilot light to stay on once I switched to on position. Changed out t-coupler and same thing ? What have I got going on ?

    First thing I'd check is the thermostat circuit. A short in this circuit will make the burner run continuously. Disconnect one of the thermostat wires- if the burner stops, that's your problem.

    What boiler is this E20 installed in?
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting