Economite issues.

brandonf

Boiler won't fire up. Come downstairs and the fan on the burner is running but no flame. 
I noticed the pilot was out so I relit the pilot.
Flipped the switch and I have a pilot and I have a blower but still no flame.
Im guessing the low water cut-off and the pressuretrol must be working since they are allowing the blower to kick on. 
Bad gas valve?  
Any help is greatly appreciated
thank you in advance. 

kcopp

Switch the burner to on...

brandonf

kcopp said:

Sorry about the pic.  I did, still nothing. 

brandonf

I wiggled the switch and it fired up. Seems odd that it would have that much play in it.

Steamhead

Has anyone done a combustion test on that burner? The E20 is not a flame-retention burner, and the boiler was designed for one.

EBEBRATT-Ed

could be the thermocouple

tim smith

I bet on end switch of burner motor. Just did one day b4 yesterday. Fasco d454 motor. Unless in fact you did not have valve lever in on position.

brandonf

Steamhead said:

Has anyone done a combustion test on that burner? The E20 is not a flame-retention burner, and the boiler was designed for one.

No combustion tests. 
What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.

brandonf

tim smith said:

I bet on end switch of burner motor. Just did one day b4 yesterday. Fasco d454 motor. Unless in fact you did not have valve lever in on position.

It was the lever I'm an idiot. 

EdTheHeaterMan

brandonf said:

No combustion tests. 
What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.

Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler. That said, I'm guessing that it has worked fine for some time now so, if it ain't broke don't fix it

But @Steamhead could always find something better to spend your money on!

Steamhead

EdTheHeaterMan said:

brandonf said:

No combustion tests. 
What do you mean by flame retention? It has a horribly designed pilot.

Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler. That said, I'm guessing that it has worked fine for some time now so, if it ain't broke don't fix it

But @Steamhead could always find something better to spend your money on!

I bet a combustion test on that burner in that boiler would show elevated CO levels. I've seen the same thing with the E20 and the Wayne P250/P265 in similar boilers. Switching to a burner such as Carlin EZ-Gas or Midco EC series cured the problem. @brandonf , where are you located? Let's get this thing tested.

WMno57

EdTheHeaterMan said:

Flame retention is a burner design. Like manual transmission or automatic transmission on a car. Just a different design. Flame retention will be more efficient under most conditions and will work better in your boiler.

Got it. But are Brandon's and my Economites more like a Mack Triplex or a Muncie Rock Crusher?
I've heard the term "Flame Retention Burner" often on this forum from you and @Steamhead. I have a lot of questions.

• Does it have something to do with the shape and direction of the flame within the combustion chamber?
  
• What is the history of Midco, the Economite and Flame Retention Burners?
  
• Were they a better design for some older obsolete type of boiler.
  
• Easier to manufacture years ago?
  
• Easier to install back in the day before modern combustion analyzers?
  
• Something that would run before the advent of computer controls and circuit boards?
  

I find this topic interesting because I'm a bit of a history geek and gearhead. Did you guys know that it took GM 40 years to get Fuel Injection right? The Rochester Ramjet was offered for 9 years from 1957 to 1965. There were three generations within that time period. None of them worked well. The fuel injected LS engine was IMO the first time they got it right. Late 1990s. I think we'll see the same with Heat Pumps. Some Lemons in the near future.
I really do appreciate all the knowledge shared on this site. Thank you in advance.

EBEBRATT-Ed

A Flame retention burner (weather oil or gas) uses higher air pressure and increased air velocity to better mix air and fuel. This causes a more compact flame usually with a higher temperature and a cleaner burn.

Flame retention burners are usually noisier.

Older boilers with larger flue passages could operate with most any burner.

Newer boilers with smaller more restrictive flue passages may need the higher static pressure of a flame retention burner to move the combustion gasses through the boiler.

Non flame retention burners may not burn well in a modern boiler

Steamhead

EBEBRATT-Ed said:

A Flame retention burner (weather oil or gas) uses higher air pressure and increased air velocity to better mix air and fuel. This causes a more compact flame usually with a higher temperature and a cleaner burn.

Flame retention burners are usually noisier.

Older boilers with larger flue passages could operate with most any burner.

Newer boilers with smaller more restrictive flue passages may need the higher static pressure of a flame retention burner to move the combustion gasses through the boiler.

Non flame retention burners may not burn well in a modern boiler

To add to this- the term "flame-retention" describes the way the flame is "locked on" to the firing head. This results in a very stable, compact flame, unlike on an older burner where the flame would "float" in the firebox. It also needs less excess air to produce a clean flame, increasing efficiency.

@WMno57 , the E20 and similar Economites were descended from Midco's "Lo-Blast" conversion burners. These were designed for changing coal-fired boilers to gas, and IIRC were mounted in the ash pit of these boilers. Somewhere I have a brochure describing the Lo-Blast, which I believe also shows some early Economites.

Midco's current model conversion burner is the EC, which should run well in that Peerless.

hyper1also

Look, I have an e20 burner and it just keeps running. No matter what I do cannot stop it from blowing unless I turn power off. Could not get pilot light to stay on once I switched to on position. Changed out t-coupler and same thing ? What have I got going on ?

Steamhead

hyper1also said:

Look, I have an e20 burner and it just keeps running. No matter what I do cannot stop it from blowing unless I turn power off. Could not get pilot light to stay on once I switched to on position. Changed out t-coupler and same thing ? What have I got going on ?

First thing I'd check is the thermostat circuit. A short in this circuit will make the burner run continuously. Disconnect one of the thermostat wires- if the burner stops, that's your problem.

What boiler is this E20 installed in?