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New steam boiler install chemical smell in house

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2

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  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    scottnjr said:



    Maybe Blue monster is made in China? :):):):)

    it is

    Yes, it is!
    scottnjr
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    I changed the tape and the smell went away. I was very methodical in troubleshooting this. I didn't "change multiple things" and then pick one to blame. Weil Mclain uses vegetable oil for cutting.

    Not to mention every one that had a problem changed multiple things, not just one.


    I have no idea what boiler manufactures use, but some places use refined lard as cutting oil. It does a decent job and it's very affordable. Look up McMaster 1308K4.

    Not sure if it can go rancid or not.

    ChrisJ
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    Wow did this ever strike a nerve. Must be Mill Rose shareholders on here. I was merely returning to update this for use by others if they encounter this problem. I had nowhere to turn. Weil Mclain rep had never heard of this problem. He told me they use vegetable oil for cutting. The smell was not a dead animal smell. It was a faint chemical smell. There were also a few variables that set this apart from the average job. First was "sensitive-nosed old lady who hardly left the house". Second was she kept the thermostat at 85 all winter, so naturally the system ran a lot. When I first checked the job, I said "whatever it is, it'll burn off". It didn't. She was at the point of calling the news station to have them sort it out on tv. We would've replaced the boiler and the smell would still be there. So I had to figure it out. Thanks to Fred on this board and the previous thread on this, I looked into the tape as a possibility. Since the odor came out of the rads, I had my doubts, since tape shouldn't be inside the pipe at all. But I was out of ideas. I had skimmed the boiler, flushed it to no avail. The other thread showed that the installer put the tape on right to the first thread and it ended up in the pipe. Well, that's exactly what our guys had done. I took the pipes apart and found almost every joint was way over-taped and too far down the pipe which allowed a lot of it to end up inside. Obviously, if you use proper taping technique on installation, this wouldn't happen. But I wouldn't recommend blue monster for steam. If you use it, you'll get away with it 99% of the time, but use it in a house with someone with a super-sensitive nose at your peril.
    ChrisJ
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,521
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    @scottnjr

    Based on what you found and other posts I am a belivier
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
    edited April 2020
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    @scottnjr, Thanks so much for keeping us updated! I appreciate it. Sometimes some of these guys, who use a product successfully for a number of years find it hard to acknowledge it may have some weaknesses. Forewarned is Forearmed and, if they train an apprentice, in their trade, hopefully they will caution them on this issue.
    Best Regards,
    Fred
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Will try to get out torch tomorrow and burn some blue monster. No horse in this race. Just need to know. @scottnjr. You mentioned that you wanded the boiler. What stage in the process was this?
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Looked back at old post. Sounds like you removed blue monster and wanded boiler afterwards. Not trying to be confrontational. Just need to know
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Forget the torch. Will get tea kettle and put blue monster over the hole. Should be more of a comparable situation.
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Blue tea anyone?? Not the most scientific test. Ran the kettle for a while. Lots of contact between the steam and the blue monster. No noticeable smell. Obviously not conclusive. Didn't run for hours and not all noses are created equal.
    luketheplumberethicalpaul
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @STEAM DOCTOR I tried all the same tests and couldn’t recreate the smell either. But I imagine there’s a lot more tape involve on the boiler, and the fact that it’s constantly heated that sets the real world Apart from the test. After I removed the tape I not only wanded the boiler, I made an 1/8” to hose bib fitting and ran water through every radiator. Obviously I wasn’t there to get definitive proof for the world of the terribleness of blue monster-I use it all the time myself- I needed to make this problem go away, so I did a thorough flushing. Does that Violate the scientific method? Yes. But again This was my last chance to make it right. This lady wasn’t going to wait anymore for me to figure it out. She wasn’t interested in finding proof of which exact thing made the odor, she wanted to live in her house again. I had already left many times after trying something new with a sincere “see if this works, if not, call me back” She had been staying in a hotel. This was after many many visits. But, my conclusion is that I had skimmed and flushed the boiler (just not the flushing of the rads.) and it hadn’t helped. The only variable I changed was removing all the tape and the smell vanished. So does this prove it was the tape beyond the shadow of a doubt? No. But it damn sure proves it to me.
    CLamb
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,673
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    scottnjr said:

    @STEAM DOCTOR I tried all the same tests and couldn’t recreate the smell either. But I imagine there’s a lot more tape involve on the boiler, and the fact that it’s constantly heated that sets the real world Apart from the test. After I removed the tape I not only wanded the boiler, I made an 1/8” to hose bib fitting and ran water through every radiator. Obviously I wasn’t there to get definitive proof for the world of the terribleness of blue monster-I use it all the time myself- I needed to make this problem go away, so I did a thorough flushing. Does that Violate the scientific method? Yes. But again This was my last chance to make it right. This lady wasn’t going to wait anymore for me to figure it out. She wasn’t interested in finding proof of which exact thing made the odor, she wanted to live in her house again. I had already left many times after trying something new with a sincere “see if this works, if not, call me back” She had been staying in a hotel. This was after many many visits. But, my conclusion is that I had skimmed and flushed the boiler (just not the flushing of the rads.) and it hadn’t helped. The only variable I changed was removing all the tape and the smell vanished. So does this prove it was the tape beyond the shadow of a doubt? No. But it damn sure proves it to me.

    Did it smell around the boiler?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    ChrisJ said:

    I have no idea what boiler manufactures use, but some places use refined lard as cutting oil. It does a decent job and it's very affordable. Look up McMaster 1308K4.

    Not sure if it can go rancid or not.

    Lard will go rancid eventually, but it's more stable than most fats, and you probably wouldn't notice it unless you tasted it. I use lard for a lot of things in the shop, and I've never really noticed a problem with smell, unlike the old cooking oil I use to quench steel.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @ChrisJ no. The smell was out of the rad vents and main vents. It was a faint smell. The wm rep claimed he didn’t even smell it. The problem is it was ever present because i
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @Hap_Hazzard The boiler manufacturers have been using the same cutting oil for decades. Blue monster tape made in China is relatively new. Why would you pick the time-tested variable over the relatively new variable as the culprit?
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    EBEBRATT-Ed said:

    Alkali metals such as elemental sodium, potassium and lithium are to be avoided. These alkali metals remove fluorine from the polymer molecule.

    Aluminum and magnesium aren't technically alkalai metals, but they're right on the borderline, so I'd also recommend against using PTFE on aluminum or magnesium threads. Another reason for avoiding it, especially on female fittings, is that it reduces friction when tightening, and this can cause the fitting to crack due to overtightening. The best thing to use on aluminum or magnesium pipe fittings is a temporary thread-locker like blue Permatex.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    scottnjr said:

    @Hap_Hazzard The boiler manufacturers have been using the same cutting oil for decades. Blue monster tape made in China is relatively new. Why would you pick the time-tested variable over the relatively new variable as the culprit?

    Did I? I'm not sure what you're responding to.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Wow, Guys. This isn't the first case where a chemical smell could not be fixed and the removal of the tape from overlapping the end of pipes/fittings took care of the problem. Why all the resistance to what seems to be obvious. The lesson, in my mind is, if you use Blue Monster, be sure to stay back far enough so that it doesn't get boiled/steamed or simply don't use it. I believe it has only been the last four or five years that it has been produced in China. Maybe before that it never posed a problem but I think we all know the reason for Chinese production is lower cost product and maybe, just maybe, the company also accepted some changes to the coating or other spec to help further reduce costs. There is a world of possibilities to pick from. It's not worth this kind of debate. You each own your own businesses, you get to make the call on what you use. I would think it a benefit to each of you to at least be aware that if/when a customer complains of a chemical smell that won't burn off, you have this possibility in your hip pocket. Is there harm in that?
    scottnjrChrisJ
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,673
    edited April 2020
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    scottnjr said:

    @ChrisJ no. The smell was out of the rad vents and main vents. It was a faint smell. The wm rep claimed he didn’t even smell it. The problem is it was ever present because i

    Don't you find it odd you didn't smell the tape around the boiler, where the largest amount of tape is exposed? The outside of the pipe is the same temperature as the inside.
    scottnjr said:

    @Hap_Hazzard The boiler manufacturers have been using the same cutting oil for decades. Blue monster tape made in China is relatively new. Why would you pick the time-tested variable over the relatively new variable as the culprit?

    They have not been using cooking oil (typically Canola oil) in shops for decades. It's fairly recent.

    If your customer is happy that's what's important.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Fred
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @ChrisJ because it’s not exposed to steam
    ChrisJ
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @Hap_Hazzard i guess I shouldn’t have directed that at you personally. Just the overall pushback on the idea that it was the tape. Rancid lard? It was a chemical odor. I removed the tape and it went away. Why the resistance?
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    Charlie from wmass said:

    All tape is made in China. Blue monster tape turns dark blue when compressed. 0 smell complaints and every boiler for almost a decade has it on it. Red herring.

    This sounds similar to the gray Oatey tape I've been using on PVC pool piping. It's thicker than the whte stuff, and it turns black when it's compressed.
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Hap_Hazzard
    Hap_Hazzard Member Posts: 2,846
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    scottnjr said:

    @Hap_Hazzard i guess I shouldn’t have directed that at you personally. Just the overall pushback on the idea that it was the tape. Rancid lard? It was a chemical odor. I removed the tape and it went away. Why the resistance?

    I was trying to point out that lard doesn't smell bad even when it goes rancid, but it would probably taste bad, so it could be ruled out.

    I'm not convinced that the real source of the smell has been explained. I couldn't help noticing that there was another thread about a smell issue, also involving a Weil-McLain boiler, but I wouldn't suspect the elastomeric seals because if they gave off fumes they'd shrink and fail, so I'd rule that out too.

    So… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    Just another DIYer | King of Prussia, PA
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S | 3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @Charlie from wmass ”red herring” says the guy who wasn’t there and who offers no other explanation
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,673
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    scottnjr said:

    @Charlie from wmass ”red herring” says the guy who wasn’t there and who offers no other explanation

    Correlation does not imply causation.
    And the fact it's highly unlikely that its the tape is why you're getting so many disagreeing with you.

    It's nothing personal.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Canucker
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    @scottnjr the boiler was dirty. You clean the boiler. The smell goes away. It was machining oils and cutting oil from installation. I've been in Boiler rooms since 1978. The issues don't change but the information does not get out to people as to how to solve the problem. you spent a lot of time taking apart Teflon tape that was not a problem. proper cleaning and skimming of the boiler would have alleviated the smell. Don't get mad at me because you wasted time.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    ethicalpaulChrisJ
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
    edited April 2020
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    @Charlie from wmass im not mad at you because I wasted my time on the job, because I solved the problem. I’m mad at you because I wasted my time methodically Typing out what I did and you couldn’t be bothered to read and absorb any of it before dismissing my conclusion with a pointless answer. If you had bothered to read any of it, you’d know I cleaned the boiler multiple times with tsp as well as skimmed it. That didn’t work. I then removed the tape and it worked. There are other posts with the same issue related to these newer thick tapes and odors. As I said previously, I’m not here to prove scientifically beyond the shadow of a doubt. I’m posting this for when it inevitably comes up in the future. The only cutting oil here was the vegetable oil Weil McLain uses. Our guys originally piped this in copper. Weil McLain never heard of this. Don’t you think we’d have a lot more cases of this if the cutting oil smelled that bad considering how many steam boilers get installed without a proper skimming and cleaning? Of course we would. But no one had an answer that worked. I’m just trying to help the next guy. It was an odd set of circumstances
  • Charlie from wmass
    Charlie from wmass Member Posts: 4,322
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    I read you explanation. You also state that your guys installed a steam boiler with copper piping. Please re-read the previous sentence I wrote. I would be more suspect a flux floating around in the system making a chemical smell then I would be of blue Teflon tape. I use blue Teflon tape on 6in iron headers and I do not have residual smell after cleaning and skimming the boiler.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
    SuperTech
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
    edited April 2020
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    @Charlie from wmass so now you say it was the flux and not the cutting oil changing to a totally new substance in between two posts having never been to the job in question. But gosh darnit it ain’t that tape! Sorry, Charlie. You’re not making much sense, buddy. And due to that, I am done interacting with you.
    ChrisJ
  • scottnjr
    scottnjr Member Posts: 60
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    @Charlie from wmass I’m breaking my rule already....what about the flux company, Charlie? What did they do wrong? Are you a plant from mill-rose corporation Charlie? It was the tape Charlie. The tape.
    ChrisJ
  • STEAM DOCTOR
    STEAM DOCTOR Member Posts: 1,967
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    Lets agree to disagree. Let's not make it personal. Good to be passionate.
    Erin Holohan Haskell
  • Erin Holohan Haskell
    Erin Holohan Haskell Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 2,284
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    STEAM DOCTOR said:

    Lets agree to disagree. Let's not make it personal. Good to be passionate.

    Yes. Thank you.
    President
    HeatingHelp.com
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,673
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    I was able to get some info, but am having problems posting it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • HVACNUT
    HVACNUT Member Posts: 5,835
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    > @ChrisJ said:
    >
    >
    > Now Megaloc on the other hand does bubble and sizzle for a while and it does have a smell. Oddly enough, I kind of like it.


    My absolute favorite part of the whole thread.
    ChrisJSuperTechCharlie from wmass
  • New England SteamWorks
    New England SteamWorks Member Posts: 1,505
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    We use Blue Monster in every job and have never had an issue.
    New England SteamWorks
    Service, Installation, & Restoration of Steam Heating Systems
    newenglandsteamworks.com
    ethicalpaul
  • EBEBRATT-Ed
    EBEBRATT-Ed Member Posts: 15,521
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    I am addicted to the smell of burning cutting oil when you thread pipe with a machine. Has to be the dark stuff. The clear doesn't smell right :):)
    ethicalpaulCharlie from wmass
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    So, they want to pass the problem on to the equipment/piping. How many of you guys have smells lasting a year or more from the boiler? Even without cleaning there are other issues like water bounce and surging etc that will get calls, in addition to smell. Just something to keep in mind anytime this ever surfaces again. It is rare but it does pop up from time to time.
    Charlie from wmass
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 15,673
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    Fred said:

    So, they want to pass the problem on to the equipment/piping. How many of you guys have smells lasting a year or more from the boiler? Even without cleaning there are other issues like water bounce and surging etc that will get calls, in addition to smell. Just something to keep in mind anytime this ever surfaces again. It is rare but it does pop up from time to time.

    It's approved to be used with potable water and in the food industry @Fred

    They aren't passing anything.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    Fred
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