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Taco, Grundfos and Wilo circulators

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Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,002
in THE MAIN WALL
After 40 years in the business, you would think I had a favorite circulator by now. It used to be Taco and then I switched to Grundfos and I've been using them for many years, but I've gotten fed up with the flimsy speed selector and want to try something else. Wilo pumps are not well represented out West; none of my suppliers stock them, but I can get them online and I like the way they are made. If you use Wilo pumps, are you happy with them?
8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab

Comments

  • LouisFournier
    LouisFournier Member Posts: 5
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    Taco makes the best circulator. I'm in Maine which means our heating is basically from Labor Day to Memorial day. Wilo comes and goes grunfos is good but does not stand up. I really like the OOE which is an ECM type circ
    SteveSan
  • kcopp
    kcopp Member Posts: 4,432
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    I have used Wilo a few times.
    Good and bad results. Overall ok. I do like the way the gaskets seal up.
    Buying online has it drawbacks as I found from a popular supplier.
    I had a Wilo S21 go bad after 6 months and The warranty process was a pain. I would have had to pay shipping to return it. From then on I have stayed w/ Grundfos and Taco.
    tamosius
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,143
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    B&G has some nice options in the Vario line of ECMs. The PL series is a nice dry rotor style

    Armstrong and AquaMotion are other options
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • Alan (California Radiant) Forbes
    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes Member Posts: 4,002
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    Just what I need: more choices. : )

    I know nothing about dry rotor circulators. Please tell me more.
    8.33 lbs./gal. x 60 min./hr. x 20°ΔT = 10,000 BTU's/hour

    Two btu per sq ft for degree difference for a slab
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,415
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    my question is with the ECM motors from what I been told have to have cleaner water then the standard motor's that we have been using for past 30 years. I heard the metal in the water kinda gets in the way and harms the ECM motor. that's one reason they came out with magnet separation for newer systems.
    DZoro
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 706
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    Hi Alan:
    Congratulations on 40 years in business; that's a big deal. Circulators fundamentally do the same thing, deliver BTU’s, but it’s how efficiently, and effectively it gets the job done that sets the bar. Taco 007e has many attributes that will differentiate itself from others. For your reference I provided a link to several tutorials thoroughly explaining some of those features and benefits so you feel confident when purchasing your next circulator. Please advise if you have any additional questions or concerns. Taco has fully staffed Tech support department that will address any concerns or issues you may have; we have your back!!
    http://www.tacocomfort.com/products/variable_speed_products/007e/index.html

    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
    HenryRobert O'Brien
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,143
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    Alan (California Radiant) Forbes said:

    Just what I need: more choices. : )

    I know nothing about dry rotor circulators. Please tell me more.

    More along the lines of the 3 piece series 100 B&G where the motor is not shining in the fluid. These are direct coupled. They tend to be in the larger sizes but I see more offerings.

    A couple reasons to go with a dry type, it eliminates issues if you have magnetite in the system, and you are not sloshing the rotor around in the fluid.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,143
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    Snowmelt said:

    my question is with the ECM motors from what I been told have to have cleaner water then the standard motor's that we have been using for past 30 years. I heard the metal in the water kinda gets in the way and harms the ECM motor. that's one reason they came out with magnet separation for newer systems.

    It's a good idea to have clean fluid in any hydronic system, regardless of the pump style.

    With ECM type you have a magnetic rotor, so it is possible for any small metallic particles to get thru the seals and barriers into the rotor can and bind or lock up the rotor.

    Magnetite forms in systems that have ferrous components and O2 ingress, especially old non barrier tube systems.

    This is why the magnetic separators were developed shortly after ECM pump technology started becoming mainstream. The mag sep will trap small particles before they can get into the ECM motors.

    Here is an example of the inside of an ECM circulator and an example of one with magnetite stuck to the rotor.

    And examples of boiler drain water with magnetite and red hematite, thanks kevin for sending all the examples of drain water.

    A magnetic separator or combination device is cheap insurance for any system.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    Henrykcopp
  • Snowmelt
    Snowmelt Member Posts: 1,415
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    I also remembering watching one of john barba webinar saying the savings of swapping out to an ecm motor is less ten bucks a year.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    The B&G NRF and PL series are great circs with a much more robust speed selector switch than the Grundfos, but at the same time tend to draw more power for the same performance. We used Wilo for about 2 years commercially for better adaptability and the failure rate was so high we went back to B&G. Residentially I use Grundfos and B&G, depending which curve better fits the needs of the job. I have nothing against Taco but it seems the average lifespan of the 007/009/011 variety is pretty poor in comparison. Perhaps it's just me, but in the last 10 years I have only seen 1 B&G failure and it was almost 30 years old. The single Grundfos failure I have seen was only due to the doofus homeowner closing the isolation valve and cooking it. Taco on the other hand, I've thrown upwards of 20 in the trash this year alone, most with seized motors.
  • Henry
    Henry Member Posts: 998
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    Wilo here has a strong presence with the on the cheap contractors. They are substantially cheaper then Grundfos but they don't perform as advertised. We replace everyone on a new install with Grundfos. We install hundreds of Grundfos pumps a year on our installs and several hundred by our 20 plus truck service division. We might get a single digit failures of all of them. The usual culprit is water quality! Grundfos Canada just takes them back no question asked!
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
    edited September 2018
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    I personally have had very good results with Taco. And as stated in Maine many of those circulators run for close to 6 months a year. I've seen many wet rotor Taco's that are 20+ years old on single circulator systems, so we know it has a lot of run time.

    I'm this area, Taco is about 3:1 anything else so I change 3x more Taco's than Grundfos. But overall, I'd say circulator failure is pretty rare, especially considering all those zone-by-circulator systems with 6 of them hanging on the return!

    I see a lot of 007's and 0010's on residential and light commercial systems.
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 706
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    the longevity of the pump is dependent on the quality of the system medium, and system piping. I've seen pumps fail after a few weeks when installed in a retrofit system that wasn't flushed out prior to installing new pump. I've also seen pumps that have lasted well over 40 years of service. When I was iin Tech support I used to get asked how long do you expect this pump to last? I would always say it depends on the system dynamics. Every Taco pump is mfg with the same quality standard that we are very proud of.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
    Rich_49Ironman
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    I must say my biggest surprise to date is an 007 that's serving a whole house by itself, and was installed to run 24/7 and deadhead until the zone valves open. I installed a wood boiler for this gentleman 4-5 years ago and found this setup on his oil boiler in the basement that he had installed himself in 1993. He wanted nothing to do with changing it, so as far as I know that 007 has been running for 25 years straight and has been deadheaded for the majority of it. That thing belongs in someone's trophy case
    Solid_Fuel_Man
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    Even all summer?
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    Solid_Fuel_Man said:

    Even all summer?

    Yup! Never been off unless the power was out lol
    Solid_Fuel_Mantamosius
  • Harold
    Harold Member Posts: 249
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    You might want to take a look at the AquaMotion pumps. Their AM55 variable speed pump seems very interesting. I have bought two of the pumps for a rebuild of my system. I spent a lot of time looking at curves and specs. From looking at their pictures, they seem to have a more robust construction than some others. It is my understanding that many of the people at AquaMotion are from Taco.
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    @Solid_Fuel_Man you'll never guess who called me this morning saying there's no heat (cold spell hit last night) at his house. I had a radiant job just 2 miles away from his place this afternoon so I swung in on the way over and wouldn't you know it, the old reliable 007 that's been running for 25 years finally crapped the bed! I had to apologize and admit I cursed it by bringing it up here just a couple days ago without knocking on wood.... Going to get the man an Alpha on Monday I guess, he still doesn't want to rewire it to run on heat call for some reason
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    After 25 years of dead headed Taco, and you are going to install the competition. Lol
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
    icy78
  • GroundUp
    GroundUp Member Posts: 1,907
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    At the alarming rate that I see Taco failures, I will stick with red circs under all circumstances. This particular 007's lifespan is an amazing feat, but I've just had really bad luck with them otherwise. At least the Alpha will take a deadhead, I know a 15-58 would die a quick death trying to fill these shoes
  • JohnNY
    JohnNY Member Posts: 3,230
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    Joe Mattiello said:

    Circulators fundamentally do the same thing, deliver BTU’s, but it’s how efficiently, and effectively it gets the job done that sets the bar.
    http://www.tacocomfort.com/products/variable_speed_products/007e/index.html

    With all due respect, you're only kind-of right. I don't know many field techs (a big part of any pump manufacturer's customer base) who can speak to the efficiency or performance of a circulator once installed. Pumps are a big deal. Pump technology is no small thing. I'm also doing this for something like 35 years now and I can say that the way a pump company presents itself, makes its product available, supports its product, and perhaps most importantly, educates its potential customers on product selection tools and methods, is the winner at this game.

    I find Wilo to be marketed to engineers. I see them on lots of job specs that come across my desk and then there's always some great effort involved in sourcing and pricing the model specified.
    Engineers rarely, if ever, have to put their hands on a pump so they don't care what they specify if it looks good on paper. I rarely see Wilo on supply house shelves.

    I've had more Grundfoss shaft seizures, by far, than any other pump manufacturer, and my techs often find their literature overbearing or confusing.

    Taco makes a great product line which is only getting better and more technologically advanced, and their curves and included literature are field-tech friendly: install this way and not that way; wire to these specs; with X head you'll get Y flow.

    I also like B&G very much and my local rep is fantastic, so out of the top 4 contenders, my choices have been limited for me through professional experience.

    Pumps are not a commodity. They are a tool.

    Contact John "JohnNY" Cataneo, NYC Master Plumber, Lic 1784
    Consulting & Troubleshooting
    Heating in NYC or NJ.
    Classes
    RPK
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,143
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    Good points

    And pumps are a global product these days, built all across the planet, regardless of the name on the box.

    I've disassembled B&G's and found Wilo innards. There seems to be more sharing between manufacturers and private labeling going on these days.

    Contractors look more at reliability compared to efficiency in small residential circulators, I feel.

    How many installers even know where the circulator is running on it's curve when it is in service?

    Features and reliability are more important, energy consumption on residential fractional hp circulators maybe 3rd place? Although circulator color is also a priority for some :)

    Seized shafts, regardless of the brand, can usually be traced to fluid quality. ECM type motors benefit from a magnetic sep in the system.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,526
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    Well said, @JohnNY
    Retired and loving it.
  • hot_rod
    hot_rod Member Posts: 22,143
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    Some unique and clever offerings from AquaMotion.

    Nice to be able to clean out the cartridge, I suspect most failures could be cleaned away.

    Unique colors and labeling is a nice touch. Maybe a pic of Alan riding his bike would be a nice logo:)

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    Living the hydronic dream
    tamosiusGrallert
  • Shahrdad
    Shahrdad Member Posts: 120
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    My Taco 110 has been running flawlessly for close to 50 years. My next one will also be a Taco.
  • tamosius
    tamosius Member Posts: 9
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    hot_rod said:

    Some unique and clever offerings from AquaMotion.

    Nice to be able to clean out the cartridge, I suspect most failures could be cleaned away.

    This. Right here! This is the future.
    Grallert
  • delcrossv
    delcrossv Member Posts: 742
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    In Chicago everything is B&G, because they're local. Just a few Taco,and only in the smaller sizes.
    Trying to squeeze the best out of a Weil-McLain JB-5 running a 1912 1 pipe system.

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