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can I use silicon lubricant on PVC Vent adapter?

Bill751Bill751 Posts: 119Member
in THE MAIN WALL
I see that Z dens makes a polypropylene gasket lubricant. That product says it's guaranteed up to 230 F max flue temp. unfortunately I don't have any of that and I'm having a hard time getting the schedule 40 into the PVC vent adapters. I feel like I would risk tearing the gasket if I were to force it in there. I surely wouldn't be able to get it back out if I wanted or needed to. My question is, can I use a silicon lubricant on the rubber gasket instead of a poly lube? The silicon says it's good for up to 500 F so the temp won't be an issue and silicone seems to be compatible with most material. Any concerns?
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Comments

  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    that gasket is the critical connection, and a potential failure point that could cause serious issues. I think I would check and get a sign off from the manufacturer. It seems like they would provide options for the PP lube if they were compatible?
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • Bill751Bill751 Posts: 119Member
    Bill751 said:

    I see that Z dens makes a polypropylene gasket lubricant. That product says it's guaranteed up to 230 F max flue temp. unfortunately I don't have any of that and I'm having a hard time getting the schedule 40 into the PVC vent adapters. I feel like I would risk tearing the gasket if I were to force it in there. I surely wouldn't be able to get it back out if I wanted or needed to. My question is, can I use a silicon lubricant on the rubber gasket instead of a poly lube? The silicon says it's good for up to 500 F so the temp won't be an issue and silicone seems to be compatible with most material. Any concerns?

    Thanks for the reply. I agree, I was hoping someone had run across this before or that it was a typical issue. The adapter fits nicely into the boiler outlet flange however the schedule 40 not so much.
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  • IronmanIronman Posts: 5,309Member
    I've gotten them together just using water, spit; snott works great. Seriously.
    Bob Boan


    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
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  • BobCBobC Posts: 5,018Member
    Hence the old expression "slicker than snot".

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
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  • FredFred Posts: 8,105Member
    OH mmmmmy GGGGod! :)
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    Snot, great. :)

    Isn't most common way to use soapy water? A shot of dish soap like Dawn or Palmolive and some water and you're good to go?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • BobCBobC Posts: 5,018Member
    Silicone grease would probably work great as well.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    BobC said:

    Silicone grease would probably work great as well.

    Bob

    Agreed,
    But it won't dry up like the soapy water will, causing the stuff to really lock together. The silicone will continue to act as a lubricant which in my opinion is bad in this application.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    The manufacturer is pretty clear about using the approved lubricant. Warranty would be void with a substitute and your liability is on the connection from now until...

    I'd wait until you find the correct product.

    There were some gasket failures in the western states with those pp venting products, in the cases I'm familiar with, installation error was the fault.

    The slope on horizontal runs is critical for flue condense doesn't lie around the bell of the piping the gasket connection, so that gasket detail is certainly under scrutiny, once a failure is documented.

    Keep your self, and your customers safe.


    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    Maybe it's just me, but that screams "Make sure you only use genuine Briggs and Stratton oil in your mower"
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 5,843Member
    Have you chamfered the pipe? I use a rasp file to accomplish a 45 degree chamfer. Slides right in...

    I had a Kitec rep tell me one time to use "spit" on thier orings to make them slide right on. I asked him for the official Kitec recommendation to use spit, and asked him what pH it needed to be etc. He was at a loss for words. :neutral:

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    > @Mark Eatherton said:
    > Have you chamfered the pipe? I use a rasp file to accomplish a 45 degree chamfer. Slides right in...
    >
    > I had a Kitec rep tell me one time to use "spit" on thier orings to make them slide right on. I asked him for the official Kitec recommendation to use spit, and asked him what pH it needed to be etc. He was at a loss for words. :neutral:
    >
    > ME

    Use only genuine Kitec spit©
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    ChrisJ said:

    Maybe it's just me, but that screams "Make sure you only use genuine Briggs and Stratton oil in your mower"

    You learn to take CO more seriously once you have been involved in a CO lawsuits where innocent people died, from flue gas spilling into a home.


    Using genetic oil in your mower probably isn't life threatening.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    hot rod said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Maybe it's just me, but that screams "Make sure you only use genuine Briggs and Stratton oil in your mower"

    You learn to take CO more seriously once you have been involved in a CO lawsuits where innocent people died, from flue gas spilling into a home.


    Using genetic oil in your mower probably isn't life threatening.
    What caused the flue gas to spill into a home?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    ChrisJ said:

    hot rod said:

    ChrisJ said:

    Maybe it's just me, but that screams "Make sure you only use genuine Briggs and Stratton oil in your mower"

    You learn to take CO more seriously once you have been involved in a CO lawsuits where innocent people died, from flue gas spilling into a home.


    Using genetic oil in your mower probably isn't life threatening.
    What caused the flue gas to spill into a home?
    \
    Depends on which attorneys the jury choses to believe.

    All the tradespeople, fuel suppliers and product manufacturers and their teams of lawyers were pretty clear on the cause.

    The HO had blocked off all the combustion and any fresh air into the home, including the duct below the wood stove which was running full till in addition to the boiler. It seems they burned all the O2 out of the home while they slept on a cold December night.

    The condition could not be replicated on the discovery day in June, leaving a grey area for the jury to decide fault.

    Leave a paper trail, and have everything signed by the HO is one piece of advise.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 5,843Member
    edited December 2016

    ChrisJ said "What caused the flue gas to spill into a home?"


    Let me count the ways...

    Jenn-Aire grill creating negative pressure, causing flue gases to be drawn to point of negative pressure.

    Whole house exhaust fans doing the same thing.

    Solid fuel appliance creating so much negative pressure in its chimney that it causes back drafting of gas appliances.

    Roofers taking a break on the roof decides to sit on the mushroom cap, collapsing it.

    Inexperienced workers dry fitting PVC venting system together for modcon boiler.

    Boilers sooted up during construction due to inhaling sheetrock dust, blocking flue gas passage ways with carbon and causing major rollout.

    Solid fuel converted appliances with no barometric damper to control draft, causing major spillage.

    Severe winds causing the "shower curtain" effect, negating negative pressure and causing spillage from the draft hood.

    "Carbon monoxide leaks" are a TV phrase which means in most cases they really don't know what caused it, but the blue bodies are a dead give away that it was CO poisoning. In most cases, the conditions that caused the "leak" self corrected before help arrived.

    And these are just the ones that I am familiar with. I'm sure Jim and Tim can probably add plenty to the potentials.

    It's not something to be taken lightly, and is the most preventable means of death and inadvertent poisoning.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • GordyGordy Posts: 9,348Member
    Anything a lawyer can use in court when life, and property are involved. Sooo is that spit you used an approved method for sliding piping together. They can make the most professional into the most incompetent in court.
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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    A sad ending.

    This after spending years as a recall service provider for the failed HTTP vent pipe assembled with high temperature RTV silicone "glue"

    Trying to right that product miscalculation.
    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    @hot rod Ah so you're not saying it happened to you.
    You're saying just in case it does happen, cover your caboose.

    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,244Member
    edited December 2016
    Mark Eatherton said:


    ChrisJ said "What caused the flue gas to spill into a home?"


    Let me count the ways...

    Jenn-Aire grill creating negative pressure, causing flue gases to be drawn to point of negative pressure.

    Whole house exhaust fans doing the same thing.

    Solid fuel appliance creating so much negative pressure in its chimney that it causes back drafting of gas appliances.

    Roofers taking a break on the roof decides to sit on the mushroom cap, collapsing it.

    Inexperienced workers dry fitting PVC venting system together for modcon boiler.

    Boilers sooted up during construction due to inhaling sheetrock dust, blocking flue gas passage ways with carbon and causing major rollout.

    Solid fuel converted appliances with no barometric damper to control draft, causing major spillage.

    Severe winds causing the "shower curtain" effect, negating negative pressure and causing spillage from the draft hood.

    "Carbon monoxide leaks" are a TV phrase which means in most cases they really don't know what caused it, but the blue bodies are a dead give away that it was CO poisoning. In most cases, the conditions that caused the "leak" self corrected before help arrived.

    And these are just the ones that I am familiar with. I'm sure Jim and Tim can probably add plenty to the potentials.

    It's not something to be taken lightly, and is the most preventable means of death and inadvertent poisoning.

    ME

    Don't get me wrong, you're the one that said a manufacturer said to use spit.

    I don't trust the "use only our brand of lubricant". I do see @hot rod 's point though when it comes to something going wrong. This is why I asked.

    This doesn't mean I don't take CO seriously.


    My networked CO detectors are slowly spreading and I have one only a few feet from the water heater and boiler. I also make modifications with great caution when it comes to repairing drafts because I realize I need a lot of air for the boiler and water heater.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
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  • hot_rodhot_rod Posts: 12,042Member
    ChrisJ said:

    @hot rod Ah so you're not saying it happened to you.
    You're saying just in case it does happen, cover your caboose.

    I was named in the lawsuit, it never went to trial. The insurance providers negotiated settlements a few weeks before the trial date.

    Water leaks, noise, un-even heat, none of those will generally cause death.

    CO, or lack of CO knowledge is a serious matter. I left a CO fact sheet with every customer from that day forward.

    I learned a lot from George at CO Experts about detecting and alarming low level, his site has some excellent info. coexperts.com

    Bob "hot rod" Rohr
    trainer for Caleffi NA
    The magic is in hydronics, and hydronics is in me
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  • Mark EathertonMark Eatherton Posts: 5,843Member
    Chris, it wasn't the manufacturer. It was one of his reps. Manufacturers, at least the smart ones, don't say things like that. Their lawyers won't let them.

    ME
    It's not so much a case of "You got what you paid for", as it is a matter of "You DIDN'T get what you DIDN'T pay for, and you're NOT going to get what you thought you were in the way of comfort". Borrowed from Heatboy.
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  • SWEISWEI Posts: 7,356Member
    I asked Centrotherm about using the Oatey water-soluble pipe lube on their joints. They said Centrocerin or no warranty.
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  • Solid_Fuel_ManSolid_Fuel_Man Posts: 1,760Member
    In the electrical field we see this type of thing all the time. We have "rigid metal conduit" know to every other trade as galvanized pipe. We thread it with the same dies as anyone else would for water/gas/steam/hydraulic. But since it carries a UL listing as "rigid metal conduit" it is for electrical purposes. I can go to our HVAC supplier and buy galvanized pipe which is physically identical minus the UL listing, so it has not been tested for electrical standards for rigid metal conduit. It may or may not meet the standards for wall thickness inner smoothness, anode thickness etc etc.

    Unless manufacturer has specifically tested and lists it as approved for the application, you are out of luck in court when someone has died. Not that I completely agree, but you can certainly see the logic in that model.

    Taylor
    Serving Northern Maine HVAC, and Controls
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