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Heating for the future.

Harvey Ramer
Harvey Ramer Member Posts: 2,217
It's summer time now and not much heating stuff going on. AC season is in full swing and I am headed to the Colorado Rockies for 3 weeks. Still, I sit here pondering what heating/cooling is going to look like in the future. I'm talking maybe 100 years down the road. I'm sure it will be nothing like the "state of the art" archaic monstrosities we are currently installing. Will the technology be an offshoot of what we currently have or will it be something we haven't thought of yet? One of the most techy things I have heard to-date, was a wall panel composed of intergral dime sized heat pumps. Pretty cool!

I just wonder what the tradesman's task is going to look like?

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Comments

  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567

    It's summer time now and not much heating stuff going on. AC season is in full swing and I am headed to the Colorado Rockies for 3 weeks. Still, I sit here pondering what heating/cooling is going to look like in the future. I'm talking maybe 100 years down the road. I'm sure it will be nothing like the "state of the art" archaic monstrosities we are currently installing. Will the technology be an offshoot of what we currently have or will it be something we haven't thought of yet? One of the most techy things I have heard to-date, was a wall panel composed of intergral dime sized heat pumps. Pretty cool!



    I just wonder what the tradesman's task is going to look like?

    Perhaps most buildings will have something similar to giant peltier devices built into the walls that can heat or cool?

    Or, maybe my dream of a hermetically sealed low temp steam system will be created and common place.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    I see plenty of VRV systems coming. Big units that take of space and are noisy will be gone. I figure in 20 years Semi Hermetic compressors will be gone for good.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567
    njtommy said:

    I see plenty of VRV systems coming. Big units that take of space and are noisy will be gone. I figure in 20 years Semi Hermetic compressors will be gone for good.

    Why do they still exist even now!?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    edited June 2016
    The way alternative energy is progressing at a painfully slow pace to be as common as the boiler in your basement, or the ac unit you cool with. I see that in 100 years as being in the drivers seat. Still driving systems in the main stream today. While alternatives mentioned will be dabbled in.

    Think about the last 100 years.
  • njtommy
    njtommy Member Posts: 1,105
    edited June 2016
    Other then refrigeration I haven't really seen any new/ larger roof top units with semi hermetics due to the change over of 410a. Now they just load up the units with 4-8 scroll compressors.

    Most people are scared of the VRVs and new tech that is coming out. I will not lie about it I am too, but you don't want be to left behind.

    I know even in my own home I will be installing a VRV system or inverter compressor when my current system dies. The days of oh you just have a bad run/ start cap on the compressor will be over with.

    We will soon see who the really good techs are and those who will no longer be smart enough to stay in the field. Your boss or customer will only stand for so much when you misdiagnose a $2,000 control board and the units still don't run.

    It's going to be an interesting ride for all of us. Especially for the younger guys.
    Paul S_3
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Fossil fuels will have been gone for a long time, by then. Someone will have solved Tesla's equations, and homes will generate their own electricity.

    Alternative energy is progressing painfully slow, because big business can't meter it.
    Paul S_3GordyTim Potter
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Paul48 said:

    Fossil fuels will have been gone for a long time, by then. Someone will have solved Tesla's equations, and homes will generate their own electricity.

    Alternative energy is progressing painfully slow, because big business can't meter it.


    I don't think fossil fuels will be gone in 100 years. Especially NG.
    kcopp
  • Larry Weingarten
    Larry Weingarten Member Posts: 2,151
    Getting out my crystal ball... Efficiency will be developed and refined to take care of around 90% of our current energy usage. The remaining 10% will be handled easily with direct solar and/or by using trash as fuel for digesters or burning. Mostly, the grid will be unnecessary for residences. I might be an optimist o:)

    To Harvey's question on what the future technician will be working on, I imagine tiny heating/cooling systems, but the main difference will be that the tech will need to understand the entire house as a system and know all of the interactions that can happen. With planning, we might have enough good trade schools by then!

    Yours, Larry
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    When the oil runs out, and it is agreed by the scientists, that it will in 20-30 years, the use of NG will be greatly accelerated.
    GreenGene
  • AMservices
    AMservices Member Posts: 596
    I imagine ductless units that can be installed between a 14-1/2" stud space, that don't stick out more then a standard grill and use no more then 100 watts.
    And new steam boilers that we can control the temperature by controlling a vacuum tight system, piped with a smaller polycarbonate (half plastic, half carbon) pipe. I see more designer radiators and Boilers that only need a 1/10 the water and btus to keep a house safe and comfortable.
    More humidity controls and products and higher standards of indoor air quality.

    And you were there, and you were there.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,565
    Paul48 said:

    Fossil fuels will have been gone for a long time, by then. Someone will have solved Tesla's equations, and homes will generate their own electricity.

    Alternative energy is progressing painfully slow, because big business can't meter it.

    Exactly the same way they found out they could not meter what Tesla (Nicola) proposed . They destroyed his work and made him destitute . Think that attitude has changed ? THINK AGAIN .

    Come up with a really good idea , think long and hard about sharing it , ask Eugene Mallove . Oh , you can't , he's dead . Coincidentally , the day before he was to introduce or speak on his work with Cold Fusion at MIT .

    There will be some new cool stuff but it won't differ too much from what we have now .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    Paul48GreenGene4JohnpipePaul S_3
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Pipe dreams are nice but the reality is the world is controlled by corporations, not governments, not politicians, that's a ruse to get you all upset and fighting with each other and unfortunately killing each other.

    What happens in the future will depend on which factions are in power, if we had stayed on the efficiency trends of the late 70's we'd be so much better off now, talk about a JAW DROP when you have a Prez and VP who are connected to oil declare Americans have the right to be wasteful and then rip the solar panels off the WH roof. Mind blowing, and it killed up and coming industries.

    The second coming of energy efficiency however is much different, this time they embraced but for themselves, almost all energy incentive money goes to corporations, UTC for instance got almost all the ARRA money slated for Connecticut for a jet engine they already R&D'd, built, and sold, @ 125million.

    That's the way it is in every state and it's why ARRA failed, the money didn't get to us, we get a cheap energy audit and some light bulbs, maybe a slight rebate on equipment.

    A real killer is the Bloom Box, ever heard of that? This guy worked for NASA, he was part of the Mars mission that got canceled, he made a thing that could produce 02 on Mars, he flipped it and it became a type of fuel cell, watch this video, before coming on line he was talking about these powering our homes, or even being stationed at transformer stations and no need for power plants.




    Guess what happened?

    You and I cannot buy a Bloom Box, but Bloom Boxes are powering many many corporate headquarters, Google, Apple, FedEx, well here's the list \/

    http://www.bloomenergy.com/customer-fuel-cell/

    4Johnpipe
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    There was also a company down south, this guy made a water pump that had a special impeller with incredibly close tolerances so much so that it produced steam heat from the water, all special metal etc to protect against cavitation and for the electricity the motor used to drive the pump and the heat it created it was over 100% efficient.

    His company now makes special pumps for Halliburton and you will not be able to find any mention of this pump on the net.
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    I think in part the people who tried to control us shot themselves in the foot, with the international market and trade the super high efficiency equipment is here and so are the manufacturers, green sells.

    Our system is outdated, we still sell dry base atmospheric gas burner boilers, they should be outlawed, they're like 43% efficient.

    Daikin just built a huge facility in Texas with 57 receiving docks and 228 shipping docks, that tells me they plan on shipping a lot of stuff, Carrier and Trane are going to take a whack. Especially since Daikin is building in the US of A.

    Rich_49
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,190
    edited June 2016
    We have a problem with out electric grid, it's in bad shape and subject to disruption by whatever group that decides to make a name for themelves. Some want to make it a smart grid which sounds good till you realize it would be easy pickins for anyone who wants to make a statement. Something like a Bloombox would be great but I don't know if they will let little folk get those.

    Perhaps we should decentralize the grid so any system can disconnect at will, that would make it relatively immune to hackers. If we had a power plant that would serve say 50-100,000 homes and did not use fossil fuel that would fit the bill. Solar cells and wind power are good but don't work for base load.

    The answer might be small modular liquid salt nuke plants that run on Thorium. Build them in a factory and ship them to the utility on a barge or train, ideally in shipping container sized loads, that would cut the cost by orders of magnitude. Put the reactors underground in every medium sized city without the worry of meltdown or proliferation. This might be good interim solution that would solve the greenhouse gas issue and allow us to burn current nuclear waste as fuel - probably the only rational way to get rid of that poison.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,190
    Cities and towns will not allow you to run power from one house lot to another, only a utility can do that because they have the pols in their pockets.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
    Rich_49
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Grid-tie it. Sell it to the utility.
    Rich_49
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,190
    Dollars to donuts the utility will want about 12 cents a KWH to tie in and that makes it economically unfeasible. They will do whatever it takes to stop something like that from taking off unless they can make money off it.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    They won't allow it, they also control solar, you can't legally add more to the grid than you use and you can't have it power your home in an outage.

    Look up Net Metering Laws, written by and for the electric companies.

    Now they don't even have to pay you if you add to the grid, all you'll get is a credit.
    HatterasguyRich_49
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Bloom box states:

    Thank you for your interest in Bloom Energy! Unfortunately, the current power output of a Bloom Box is far more than the individual home needs. Today's product is best suited for large commercial and industrial scale applications. The technology is evolving every day, and our ultimate goal is to be able to provide clean, reliable, affordable energy to every home, however this will take time, and several more years of development. In the meantime, please join our Facebook
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    So what's been happening is while the corporations get all this free stuff and free electricity the electric companies and their stock holders still want a profit,,...........that's why our rates go up.

    Follow the Money
  • JUGHNE
    JUGHNE Member Posts: 8,317
    Start simple, just figure out how to burn used tires cleanly. Tremendous amount of BTU's available. EPA will be right there.

    If you have ever been near even a small tire fire you realize the heat produced with little ash left and just the steel belts lying there. If you are on your way to one you don't need directions, the smoke and smell will guide you there. And bring your lunch because you will there most of a day. Very hard to put out, you try to trench thru the pile to separate the non burning from the fire. There have to be millions of them around the country.
    Hatterasguy
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    @GreenGene

    Maybe you should look at CT's new regulation for net metering. They probably wouldn't let you net meter a generator, but the other things you stated are not accurate.
    HatterasguySolid_Fuel_Man
  • FranklinD
    FranklinD Member Posts: 399
    We have a pretty decent utility here, and even they do not like grid-intertie. For several years I ran a little 'guerilla solar' system with a mini-intertie inverter, that just plugs into a wall outlet. I had panels but no room or reason for batteries and an inverter until we bought our current home.

    I back-fed a max of 300 watts, not much at all, but during the summer it ended up being about 90 kWh per month, about 1/7 of our usage, and knocked about $9-10 off our bill. Not much, but it adds up over time. Now I have 440 amp/hr of storage and a little sine wave inverter that runs all the indoor/outdoor lighting and door opener in the garage and backyard. If there's a power outage (like this morning by coincidence) I stretch a good 12ga cord to the house (50 feet) for a few lights, the fridge, and chest freezer in the summer, lights and boiler/circ in the winter. It's worked out well. Solar hot water is next.

    I hadn't heard of the Bloom Box...being in the auto industry, I had always heard about the gentleman and his 100 mpg carburetor. It wouldn't surprise me to find out it was true, either.
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    Out of curiosity......Who else pays a delivery charge, based on kw's used? Ours is higher than the generation cost. That's what happens when you have de-regulation, and you can choose whichever generation company you want. Wouldn't you think it should be a flat fee for delivery? It's not like there's a guy on a bicycle delivering kw's to you house.
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Paul48 said:

    Out of curiosity......Who else pays a delivery charge, based on kw's used? Ours is higher than the generation cost. That's what happens when you have de-regulation, and you can choose whichever generation company you want. Wouldn't you think it should be a flat fee for delivery? It's not like there's a guy on a bicycle delivering kw's to you house.


    Think of it like this. Since when is labor cheaper than materials?

    That delivery charge encompasses all the maintenance,and upgrades to the infrastructure that KW follows to your home.

    I would rather it not be a flat fee. Think of it like a toll road you use it you pay for it. That's the fairest tax there is.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    In our case, and I kid you not...the deliver charge includes, paying for the decommissioning of the nuke plants they ran into the ground, and repaying them for bad investments they made. Our rates combined, are 50% more than you quoted. Still would rather pay by the mile?
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    Yeah Paul I would pay by KW used rather than a flat rate every bill whether I used 1 kW a month or 20 kW a month.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    OK...... :smile:
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,470
    They have to have on a KW used basis here. So they can rotate which generation company they are stiffing, and still be sure enough was paid to cover their bill. I know they do that because they ripped a lot of folks here off, and attempted to rip me off, as well.
    njtommy
  • FranklinD
    FranklinD Member Posts: 399
    We do well on electric here in NW WI...total cost, including all fees, ends up around $0.11/kWh. Where we get hosed (literally) is on water and sewage. Our city of 26,000 sold the city-owned water utility to MN Power (now Allete) back in the 70's. What a stupid thing to do. We now have the highest water rates in WI, despite being on the shore of Lake Superior (it's 1500' from my house). And of course, I can't simply sink a well in my backyard...that became very illegal due to language included in the water utility sale contract. Go figure.

    We pay, monthly, $29.77 in fees before we use a single drop of water...the actual commodity charge is $5.75 per ccf, so the average monthly water bill for a family of 4 is about $55-60. Our sewage rates mirror the water exactly. When we bought our house 5 years ago, sewage was a $6 monthly charge plus $3.50 per unit (basically $3.50 per ccf of water used). Since then it's gone up to a $15 monthly charge and $7.50 per ccf. We also pay about $68 per year per household as a 'storm water fee'.

    It's getting out of hand around here...our property taxes are very high as well, more than double that of any similar property across the river in Duluth, MN. Duluth's city-owned utility (water and gas) does very well and is always in the black.

    I guess I'll just never understand politics. Sorry folks, just had to vent. Ugh.

    Andy
    Ford Master Technician, "Tinkerer of Terror"
    Police & Fire Equipment Lead Mechanic, NW WI
    Lover of Old Homes & Gravity Hot Water Systems
  • GreenGene
    GreenGene Member Posts: 290
    Hate to tell you're wrong, but you're wrong.

    Deregulation SUCKS, it was written by ENRON and CT politicians were paid off to make it law, it is why our rates are the highest in the nation, it's a scam, it's off the same damn grid.

    Now if you know anything about Ct I'll blow all notions about govt and how only a corporation can do it cheaper for the tax payers out of the water.

    The town of Wallingford has it's own power plant and utility workers, they are not concerned with CEO's bonuses or stock holders.

    They have the cheapest electricity around. Some things should not be for profit, it ruins it and sucks money out of the economy.

    As to Net Metering, it's written by and for the electric companies, all of our laws are written by and for corporations, especially the tax laws, every year they add more loopholes and write offs.

    As to electric costs, those are the FACTS, all energy incentive monies are directed towards large corporations who own our politicians.

    UTC, GE, Webster bank, and many others all have fuel cells or giant solar arrays paid for by us so that they do not have an electric bill, that gets turned to bonuses.

    Their bills would have been thousands of dollars per month, that is a drop in revenue for the electric companies that is made up by you and me.

    Ct has had a myriad of problems thanks to ENRON and net metering. The list is staggering of articles and complaints and even "an error" that got put into law that no one knows how it got there.

    http://www.courant.com/business/hc-solar-industry-major-legislative-error-20140707-story.html

    In fact all across the nation electric companies are paying off politicians to write bad law to make solar unattractive. Initially they had to pay you, now all they have to do is give you a credit towards your electric bill which you might never use and that money stays with them.

    Rich_49
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567

    GreenGene said:


    In fact all across the nation electric companies are paying off politicians to write bad law to make solar unattractive. Initially they had to pay you, now all they have to do is give you a credit towards your electric bill which you might never use and that money stays with them.

    That's a factually incorrect statement.

    Most utilities have to pay you for the excess power that you generate. Of course, it's a pittance and only represents their actual cost to produce the power but it still confirms that your conclusion is seriously flawed.
    As far as I've been told, the power company won't let me install larger than a certain size system and it's based off of my electrical usage. No matter how much roof I have, I'm only allowed to install a system large enough to barely cover my electric, they intentionally don't want that meter spinning backwards.

    Now, that's what I've been told by a few reliable people. I haven't actually done it.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
    GreenGene
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567

    ChrisJ said:



    As far as I've been told, the power company won't let me install larger than a certain size system and it's based off of my electrical usage. No matter how much roof I have, I'm only allowed to install a system large enough to barely cover my electric, they intentionally don't want that meter spinning backwards.

    Now, that's what I've been told by a few reliable people. I haven't actually done it.

    Of that, I have no doubt.

    The power company will seek to limit solar as much as they possibly can for obvious reasons.

    Every KWH that is derived from solar takes away the full retail amount of power that was sold (currently $.020 here). They produce this power for $.06. Imagine you were in a business where your customers are now your competitors?

    If the meter does spin backwards (presuming that it can), they will give you that $.06. They lose nothing in that transaction. The loss all comes from the $.20 power that you generate for your own use.

    So, I don't quite understand their reluctance to allow more solar panels than your potential usage. The loss has already occurred prior to that point.
    So which is it.
    So obvious you have no doubt, or, you don't quite understand? :)
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    They have you by the balls no matter what. Be interesting to know the back drop of investors in alternative energy. Silent ties that make it just expensive enough to deter off grid capability for normal usage. They will get their money one way, or the other. Either by forcing the grid use, or reaping profits in the alternative energy arena.
  • ChrisJ
    ChrisJ Member Posts: 11,567

    ChrisJ said:


    So which is it.
    So obvious you have no doubt, or, you don't quite understand? :)

    I have no doubt that they want to limit your use of solar. What I don't understand is why that want to prevent the $.06 offset. Their cost is $,06 so they should not care about that.

    You understand?
    What I do know is they're loaded and you're only sort of loaded. :)

    I can only assume, they're better business men than you.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    With PV it's panel efficiency. Maybe 20% which degrades over time unlike Solar hw. Higher efficiencies are doable ask NASA.

    What that means is you need the area for panels to make up for the lack of efficiency. That's not even covering the storage end.

    Of course I'm speaking of being completely off grid, and maintaining life style in usage.
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,565
    @ Hatterasguy

    That's a factually incorrect statement.

    Most utilities have to pay you for the excess power that you generate. Of course, it's a pittance and only represents their actual cost to produce the power but it still confirms that your conclusion is seriously flawed.

    Not so fast my friend . You ought to look into what some western states have already done and are doing to the grid tied crowd whom were promised the world . Arizona , Nevada . It will get worse as more don't hear about that and get sucked in .
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
    wyo
  • Rich_49
    Rich_49 Member Posts: 2,565

    Rich said:

    @ Hatterasguy



    Not so fast my friend . You ought to look into what some western states have already done and are doing to the grid tied crowd whom were promised the world . Arizona , Nevada . It will get worse as more don't hear about that and get sucked in .

    As a matter of fact:

    Here’s the deal, though: Home solar generators currently receive up to $0.10 per kilowatt hour that they sell to the utility… but SRP wants to reduce that to $0.04. That’s less than SRP will be paying to generate solar power at its own new massive plant. This will effectively increase solar customers’ bills.

    Does this statement contradict what I stated above?

    The utility wants to pay them what it costs to actually generate the power. Not a penny more.
    Yet , everybody in many groups is touting that we need to do this to get off fossil fuels . I have no clue what drugs they have been consuming to think the Utilities care about them and will not immediately become even more power hungry ( haha) than they are presently . Pretty cool that you can have folks make your energy for you ten sell it back to them and others at a profit . Anybody ever seen the movie Tank Girl ?
    You didn't get what you didn't pay for and it will never be what you thought it would .
    Langans Plumbing & Heating LLC
    732-751-1560
    Serving most of New Jersey, Eastern Pa .
    Consultation, Design & Installation anywhere
    Rich McGrath 732-581-3833
  • Gordy
    Gordy Member Posts: 9,514
    As usual the plot thickens unnoticed........
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