Pump Squeal - brand new Bell & Gossett series 100 bearing assembly
We took the bearing assembly back and got a replacement. After about two weeks of operation it is doing the same thing plus sometimes it squeals even when running, not just when stopping.
We made darn sure the system was flooded before allowing the pump to run so it never ran with a dry seal.
Any ideas?
Thanks,
Ken
Comments
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Does the new 100 replacement bearing assembly require oil like the old ones did? I know things change.0
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Yes. The bearing assembly came with a small tube of oil. It had three lines on it. You squeeze oil into the bearing assembly oil cup till the level in the tube reached the first line, then you squeezed oil into each motor oil cup, one motor oil cup to the second line and the other motor oil cup to the third line. But the motor was not replaced, just the bearing assembly so it didn't need this much oil, it had already been oiled at the start of the heating season. B&G warns not to over oil the motor.
Ken0 -
Could your issue be with the motor itself? After motor bushings heat up they could get noisey and upon cooling down seem good. I really liked that pump but as they age there seemed to a variety of problems. And cheap replacements were cheap. Won't last as long as a 100 but were cheap.0
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A squeal when a mechanical sealed pump shuts down usually indicates a dry running seal (runs OK when the circ is at speed). This is why the minimum speed of a sealed pump can't go much below 20 Hz for example - the seal looses the fluid film (lubrication) between the stationary and rotating seal components. The lower the system pressure the bigger the problem.
What is the system pressure, where is the expansion located (upstream or downstream of the circ) and are you using any kind of boiler treatment?
Not saying it isn't the motor or bearing assembly but I suspect the seal.0 -
There used to be instructions with B&G Series 100 pump seals/Brackets suggesting that you always replace the rubber motor mounts. Because although they always look fine, even on one running for 20 years, the weight of the motor causes the end rubber mount to squash and drop. Especially if the motor is over-oiled. B&G was more interested in the fact that it caused motor to bearing drive couplers to fail. The motor is now misaligned and "wobbles" in its rotation. Which causes the springs to break. Its of my useless opinion that it also sets up vibration and the small vibration causes the ceramic seal to wear unevenly. If you go somewhere and see some dead couplers around, change the rubber mounts. Ir change the pump. A Lucky 7 pump is cheaper than the sum of the repair parts.
Its also very easy to damage the seal when swapping out impellors. If the impellor gets bent from removal from the old, it will be out of balance on the new bearing/seal assembly. Another reason why you see so many red flanges with green pumps connected to them. And the green "Lucky 7" pumps connected to them. With the red rubber gaskets that leak and the black synthetic rubber square cut O-rings thrown away.
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Thanks to all for the replies.
Steve Thompson:
The system is at 12 PSI static and cold. The expansion tank is large and the pressure only goes up about one (1) psi at temperature (190 DegF).
The expansion tank comes off a B&G inline air seperator right before the suction side of the pump.
icesailor:
The rubber motor mounts were changed a year or a year and a half ago when the coupling broke. We try not to over oil the motor because of the motor mount issue.
The impeller is off the bearing assembly that started leaking, it is plastic.
One other thing to mention:
After the first new bearing assembly started to squeal we took the whole motor/bearing assembly out as a unit and set it on a table, it was still hot from being in the system. When I slowly turned the impeller by hand and then let it come to a stop it squealed but after about two minutes on the table it had cooled down a bit and then when I turned it, it did not squeal.
But we replaced that first new bearing assembly anyhow and now the second new one is squealing. It is still in the system.
JUGHNE:
The fact that is stopped squealing when it cooled down makes me feel that it is the bearing assembly and not the motor because the motor probably wouldn't change temperature that quickly where as the bearing assembly would. But I don't want to fool myself to the true problem and end up spending much time and money.
All three bearing assemblies (the one that was leaking and the two new replacements) were aluminum with carbon/ceramic seals.
Any other thoughts?
Thanks,
Ken
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At this point some pictures would help. You are missing something, two bad bearing assembles very unlikely.0
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Pop the cover that the flip top for oil, on the bearing assembly is. The square cover. Put a tablespoon of oil in there.0
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If the motor is an older one it has a centrifugal starting switch . When you turn the pump off as it slows down do you hear a click and then the squeal ?
There was an error rendering this rich post.
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What kind of oil are you using on these bearings?0
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Has Joni "let's make 'em squeal" Ernst been near this system?--NBC0
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I know this is old topic, but seems to end without resolution and I am having same squeal issue. Tried to private message ken7878 but seems to have not been on here since Jan 2015 and may not get it. Maybe was resolved by direct messaging between him and one of posters in thread, if so please come forward... TIA0
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You can maybe use a mechanic's stethoscope to isolate the source of the sound. The ceramic seal is lubricated by the system water. You might try to lubricate the centrifugal weights and circular plate on centrifugal starting switch with electrical grade silicone spray. Be sure and spray half a can, like not. Light spray only.0
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Has anyone managed to determine root cause/solution to this? We recently had a brand new B&G 100 installed and are getting that short screech at boiler burner shutdown. Thanks.0
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Has the new pump been properly oiled?
Why was a wet rotor pump not used?
In residential applications, the B&G 100 is kind of obsolete. By about 30 years.0 -
Had comparable Taco 110 that worked well for 15+ years. When we tried various higher RPM, lower volume/higher head wet rotors we had various noise and flow issues. So went back to same pump profile. And yes, believe it was properly oiled.0
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Series 100 circulators were used with zone valves because it had a flat pump curve, albeit low head. The Series 100 has wicking in the pump section to keep oil on the shaft. Is it there?
A manufacturing defect? It happens. Did you talk to B&G?0 -
Having the exact same problem. I replaced a leaking bearing assembly with a new bearing assembly, coupler and impeller. oiled it with the provided tube of oil. When the pump stops there is a squeal. Out of frustration I replaced it with a brand new pump and added oil. Same problem. It squeals when it comes to a stop. Was the cause determined?? Fix?
Thx
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I have also been having this issue with a brand new series 100 circulator pump. It would squeal at shut-down every so often. Maybe once every couple of days. I did oil it per the manufacturer's instructions at initial installation, but am hesitant to over-oil the bearing assembly.
The last time I had heard a squeal was February 20th. I was assuming that the oil had finally made its way around and properly lubricated the seal. Now, this morning (about 3 weeks later) I heard it once again.
Has anyone else who posted about this found a cause or solution? Did more oil help? If it is a pump issue, it would be great to replace it while it is under warranty.
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Random question and I’m assuming this isn’t the case, but any chance it isn’t the pump making the squeal but it is instead coming from the damper that is likely closing pretty much at the same time the pump is shutting off? From other parts of the house it may seem/sound like it must be the pump when in fact it is not….Long-shot but figured I would put it out there just in case….
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In my case it makes the noise regardless if the boiler is running or not or if the vent is turning or not.
In the course of two weeks I replaced the coupler, bearing assembly and impeller on the original pump. Since then I have replaced it with two new pumps. Same noise. So, I'm wondering if it's due to the materials they are using with these newer pumps OR if it's not related to the pump at all. What's the chance that three new pumps make the noise? I sure would like to know if the original post got an answer.
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Oh, I forgot to mention this last time I replaced the volute also.
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@lasance It sounds like you and I are in the same boat. I had also replaced my entire pump including the volute. When I listen to it stop, it definitely sounds like the squeal comes from inside the pump on the impellor / volute side.
Very frustrating to hear that you ended up with three pumps all with this same issue! I reread the installation instructions just now to confirm I had not missed any of the steps. Has adding any additional oil to your pumps helped at all?
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It seems for the cost of a Series 100 or even the repair parts you could replace it with any of the delta P ECMs which have a lot of adjustability, use less that 50% of the energy and qualify for rebates in many areas.
Bob "hot rod" Rohr
trainer for Caleffi NA
Living the hydronic dream0 -
I did add oil to one pump (both bearing assembly and motor). Noise still there.
I have 3 zones. Each with a series 100 pump. No issues with the other two which are 25 years old.
I wanted to stay with the series 100 since I also have spare parts. BTW I did return one of the pumps:)
I have considered a Taco cartridge pump as a last alternative. I've had conversations with a tech rep from a large distributor of B&G and Taco. He somewhat discouraged me from looking at the Taco because he thought they were noisier:) He has heard my noise first hand (although he doesn't know what it is either). I had him on the phone to listen to the noise. He was actually on the phone while having me troubleshoot. That's customer service!
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What's the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. (1) rebuilt circulator and (2) brand new circulators lead me to believe the cause is elsewhere. I'm always a believer that if i replace a part that has broken and the new part is broken in the same way after its been install and operating a little then you need to look elsewhere. There is something else causing the failures. I understand that there are manufacturers defects but i try to avoid blaming them unless i'm absolutely sure that the new parts have defects. its always to easy to blame the manufacturer. In the air conditioning industry the manufacturers claim that 60% (or something in that neighborhood) of returned compressors are good and have misdiagnosed.
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The B&G 100 is a three piece pump, and almost bulletproof. Not quite. Like any three piece pump, they are sensitive to misalignment. Yes, there is a sort of flexible coupling, but it must be installed so there is no possibility of being asked to take up angular or lateral thrust. First place I'd look if three pumps installed in the same location have had the same problem would be the installation…
Br. Jamie, osb
Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England0
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