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New homeowner with steam boiler

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2

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  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited December 2014
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    Got it. Thank you. The reason I think it needs a skim is because I can actually see an oily film/vapor moving up and down above the water line in the site glass.

    Should I insulate my near boiler pipes? I see a lot of pictures, here, and online and no one seems to insulate the pipes directly coming out of the boiler. I don't have access to my main's since they are dry walled in.
  • Jamie Hall
    Jamie Hall Member Posts: 23,352
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    Keep in mind that many of the pictures are made to show the piping, and the insulation is added afterwards! Insulate everything which carries steam that you can get at.
    Br. Jamie, osb
    Building superintendent/caretaker, 7200 sq. ft. historic house museum with dependencies in New England
    jonny88
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Can I use plumbers paste on the threads or do I need to buy some type of specific Teflon tape?
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,861
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    Is that a Dunkirk boiler, or one of the ones Dunkirk re-branded for someone else? If so, you will want to bush down the 2-1/2" hole before skimming. The internal push nipples in that boiler are smaller than 2-1/2", so if you use the full 2-1/2" opening to skim, it will only skim the first section.

    Assuming that is a Dunkirk, I'd repipe the header to use both steam tappings, and put my bushing in a tee on one side.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    Very valuable information about the diameters. How did you identify that problem, and its resolution-or is it "don't ask me how I know that"?
    We must all be thinking of a piping strategy which will separate the oils into a separate pipe which can be periodically drained off. If that piping can trap even 1% of the oils for every hour of firing, then that would be an improvement. 12 hours of skimming is just too long for most pros, and homeowners. --NBC
  • Steamhead
    Steamhead Member Posts: 16,861
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    Hatterasguy said:

    It's ECR.

    Although most believe Dunkirk is a manufacturer, ECR makes these boilers for Dunkirk, Green Mountain, Bryant, Lennox and probably others. They are all identical.

    They make the same models and sizes for Utica as well, however that boiler is slightly different with smaller side tappings for reasons that make no sense.

    Unless something has changed recently, the labels on these units all say they were certified by "DRC" which is Dunkirk Radiator Co. That may be the corporate identity on file with IBR/Hydronics Institute/GAMA or whatever they're calling it this month. They used to be called "Plymouth" boilers for years.

    ECR is, as you stated, the parent company of both Dunkirk and Utica. The Utica version (PEG) works better for steam, despite the smaller tappings. It may simply have more headroom for steam to disengage.
    All Steamed Up, Inc.
    Towson, MD, USA
    Steam, Vapor & Hot-Water Heating Specialists
    Oil & Gas Burner Service
    Consulting
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Just cut out a 6 x 9 access hole as close to the end of the main pipe as I can. This is what I see. Would this be the end of the main? If so no vents =(

    Left is the boiler.


  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    No.. that's not the end of the main. follow the two pipes that lead away from the boiler.. the one that goes to the right and the one that goes towards you. That just looks like a drip on the main.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited December 2014
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    How long does it take a properly setup one pipe steam radiator system to heat up a home?

    I realize there are a lot of variables but lets imagine all things being equal.

    Lets start with a 2000 sq foot, two story, home with perfect insulation. Ten radiators, five on each level, boiler in basement. I suppose the type of radiator will make a difference too.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Not sure what you are asking here. How long does it take to install a one pipe system? Or How long should it take for a one pipe system to get steam to all 10 radiators? In either case, it will depend on your specific install but in general, it should take 5 minutes or less to get steam to fill the Mains and maybe another 2 to 3 minutes to start heating the radiators. If properly balanced, all radiators should begin to heat at about the same time. Also, the location of the Thermostat relative to the nearest radiator and the outside temperatures will be factors on how long the boiler will run. On mild days, the boiler may not run long enough to heat the radiators all the way across before the Thermostat is satisfied. The same holds true with the thermostat being to close to a heat source. hope this helps???
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    I was just wondering how fast a system system can heat a home. Another way to put it would be how long does it take all radiators to heat up to "steam" temperature.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Finally got a low pressure gauge had to order online. I'm trying to determine best location to put it. Would this location work? What would be the best way to pipe it?

    Thank you.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited December 2014
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    What if I put the tee in "sideways" and mount the pressuretrol on the top and the gauge coming out the right side with a 2.5" nipple with an elbow? Would that work its a bit simpler i think.

    Am I wrong?
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Got the gauge installed today THANK YOU!

    So now that I have the gauge I'm confused why the pressure builds up to past the pressuretrol setting. I have the cut-in at 0.5 and differential at 1. On first run the gauge went a tad past 3psi before the boiler turned off. About 30 seconds later the boiler tried to turn on (the flue gate started to open) before it turned off, the gauge was a < 1psi at that time. What gives?

    I still cannot find any main vents. I've put more holes in the walls than I'd like. I did have someone here who said I have a dry-return and thus the main vent should in the boiler room where the dry-return drops to the boiler. Is that right? He is a plumber but said he specializes in hydronic and is not too familiar with steam systems though.

    I noticed one radiator air vent stopped closing so I'll replace it but that can't be the issue can it?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
    edited December 2014
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    Are you sure the pigtail is clear and that the pressuretol can "see" what the boiler is doing? Make sure the white wheel is set all the way down against the stop and that the front tab is as low as it will go.

    If everything is clear you may have to calibrate your pressuretrol because thae factory only checks them at the high limit. In the picture you will see a very small set screw (0.05") that can trim the setting so it is reasonably accurate at the low end.

    When the boiler starts to build pressure you want to adjust that setscrew clockwise (I think) by a VERY SMALL amount - maybe 1/16th of a turn. That should make it turn off the boiler a bit lower in pressure. If you play around with that you should be able to get it set so it shuts the boiler down at about 1.5 PSI.

    When your done, make sure the boiler will restart when the pressure drops (you might have to turn up the thermostat a bit) because some pressuretrols will not turn back on at very low settings. Once you have it set right a little dab of paint or varnish will make sure that screw can't move.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    Are you sure the diff is set to 1? turn it down as far as it'll go just to check.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited January 2015
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    Cut-in set at 0.5 differential set to 1 (yes its turned all the way)

    I've adjusted the calibration screw so that now the system turns off at 2.5psi. I can probably calibrate it to 1.5 but i stoped because I notice that the system short cycles on pressure.

    Pressure builds to 2.5 system turns off. About 30 seconds later the system starts the ignition process at 1.5psi. By the time the burners light up pressure is a bit over 0.5psi. This repeats every 5-8 min or so.

    Someone suggested to me it may be because I have steel copper element convector radiators where cast iron ones may have been. The entire house has convector radiators now.

    What are my options? I think this is why the system was set to higher pressure when I first moved in so the boiler doesn't short cycle.

    I now believe I have two dry return pipes (see pic) Left side is over 28" above water line. Right side is at about 26.5". Both drop to the same pipe connected to the equalizing loop/Hartford loop. Is my best bet to drill/tap some holes in them put in a nipple and some vents on them? Thank you and Happy New Year!
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    It takes less than 5 min. ones the boiler is already hot to go to 2.5psi then it stops for a min and it does it again and again.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited January 2015
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    I'll try and gather that info. Thank you. In the mean time should I raise the pressure to stop it from short-cycling or its okay for a while?

    Also does it matter that the radiators are convectors and not cast iron?
  • nicholas bonham-carter
    nicholas bonham-carter Member Posts: 8,578
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    The radiator vents can be damaged by too much pressure, so just put up with the short-cycling, until you install the main vents. Your fuel supplier will be very sad when you get this venting problem corrected!
    Since you have convectors, you may want to adjust the thermostat to a higher number of Cycles per hour, (CPH), maybe 2, or 3.--NBC
  • Abracadabra
    Abracadabra Member Posts: 1,948
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    #1 - If you have cut-in set to .5 and diff set to 1 and the boiler is cutting out at 2.5 and cutting in at 1.5 you need to recalibrate the pressuretrol if you are sure the gauge is reading correctly

    #2 - Sounds like your boiler is significantly oversized. What's the attached EDR? What's the EDR of the boiler?
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Abracadabra said:

    #1 - If you have cut-in set to .5 and diff set to 1 and the boiler is cutting out at 2.5 and cutting in at 1.5 you need to recalibrate the pressuretrol if you are sure the gauge is reading correctly

    Either that or the Pigtail is clogged with gunk. Did you clean that pigtail as advised many comments ago?

  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    I was just about to ask why is it cuting in at 1.5 if its set to 0.5. When I was putting in the gauge I checked the pigtail by blowing through i, it seemed clean (no resistance) so I doubt it's clogged but I'll check again by actually removing it one of these days. It's pretty new. (About two years old)

    I can't imagine the gauge is faulty reviews on Amazon are good on it. I can get another one and mount it on a different pigtail.

    I'll have to measure the radiators and get the EDR. I'll report back when I have the time to do it.

    How do I recalibrate the pressuretrol for cut in. I followed BobC's directions to set the cut out a bit lower. The cut in screw doesn't go any lower, if I go lower it comes out. The differential is all the way to 1.
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
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    This is the complete text of the pressuretrol calibration as posted by one of our board members a while ago -

    If you see the pressure on the low pressure gauge go much over 1.5 to 2 lbs follow this procedure to re-calibrate the Pressuretrol:
    Inside the Pressuretrol, right below the micro switch, there is a pivot arm. At the end of that arm you will see a screw pin that is activated by the diaphragm at the bottom of the Pressuretrol. If you look very carefully at that screw pin, you will see it actually has a tiny (I mean tiny) hex head on it. It takes a .050 hex wrench and you can turn it clockwise (Towards the bottom of the Pressuretrol to decrease the Cut-out pressure or counter clockwise to increase the cut-out pressure (which none of us want to do but who knows, your Pressuretrol may be really screwed up!). Turn the power to the unit off first. You may find the first attempt to turn that screw a little bit stubborn (relatively speaking) because it has some Locktite on it but it does turn. Don't turn too much, a tiny fraction of a turn goes a long way towards getting it adjusted where you want it (maybe 1/32 inch turn to start with) . You may need to play with it to get it exactly where you want cut out to be.
    If yours will not adjust it may be one that is too far gone (manufacturing tolerance buildup?) and you have to live with it or replace it.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Thank you Bob. I actually read that post also before posting. That only described how to calibrate the cut-out. My issue is the cut in.

    Currently the cut in is at 0.5 and cut out os at 1. BUT boiler cuts out at 2.5 (was a bit over 3 before I calibrated it a tad lower) and cuts in at 1.5

    I'll try to calibrate it to match the setting and see if that addresses it from cutting in too early. I think I'll have to rais the differential after to prevent it from short cycling even more.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Just a thought. While I try to figure out the main venting issue. Would it make sense to put larger air vents on the furthest radiators to vent the pipes quicker?
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
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    Getting adequate main venting will hopefully lessen the cycling you are experiencing. Do you see a lot of bouncing in the sight glass? If you do it may mean the boiler has to be skimmed to remove oil from the water.

    I would use higher pressure to lessen cycling because that will drive your fuel costs up. My boiler is 50% larger than it should be and I get about 4 cycles at the end of each heating cycle. I run at a maximum of 12 ozs and use gas as fuel, I know that raising the pressure to 1.5PSI will lessen the cycling but it won't stop it and it will consume more fuel.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • BobC
    BobC Member Posts: 5,479
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    Your right, I meant to say "would not". damn finger never do what they are told.

    Bob
    Smith G8-3 with EZ Gas @ 90,000 BTU, Single pipe steam
    Vaporstat with a 12oz cut-out and 4oz cut-in
    3PSI gauge
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Got it.

    So there is no way to calibrate pressuretrol cut in other than the top screw, witch is already set at .5? I'm stuck at the cut in of 1.5. If I can get it to actually cut in at the lower pressure that would reduce the cycling a bit. Not by much but still.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    That makes no sesense to me. If I get it to actually cut in 0.5 vs 1.5 as its doing now wouldn't that increase the time between each cycle since it will wait a bit longer until turning on the burner again and then it will take longer to build up the pressure to the cut out?
  • wmtandson
    wmtandson Member Posts: 62
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    use care with that scavenger loop
    it can hold a lot of cold water and if turned on during a cold period at high demand ,it will send cold water into a very hot boiler causing damage.
    I have seen the result many times
    Tolik
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    I suspect someone along the way has taken the spring off of the Cut-in mechinism and stretched it or something. If, by chance you have an old Pressuretrol laying around it would be interesting to take the spring out of it and change it out with the one on your boiler and see if that corrects the cut-in adjustment.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited January 2015
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    nicholas bonham-carter said:

    The radiator vents can be damaged by too much pressure, so just put up with the short-cycling, until you install the main vents. Your fuel supplier will be very sad when you get this venting problem corrected!
    Since you have convectors, you may want to adjust the thermostat to a higher number of Cycles per hour, (CPH), maybe 2, or 3.--NBC

    Its a Nest "smart" thermostat (came with the house). It doesn't have that feature =(

    Although I did notice sometimes during the heating cycle the nest will indicate a countdown timer till it calls for heat again. Basically it pauses for a few min.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Fred said:

    I suspect someone along the way has taken the spring off of the Cut-in mechinism and stretched it or something. If, by chance you have an old Pressuretrol laying around it would be interesting to take the spring out of it and change it out with the one on your boiler and see if that corrects the cut-in adjustment.

    Nahh, nothing extra. Before we moved into this house I didn't know what that things such as pressuretrol existed let alone what it does. Now my wife thinks I'm crazy for trying to learn so much about this.

    I can try and take out the spring and compress it or stretch it, but I'm not sure which way to go, or if that's even a good idea.
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Hatterasguy said:


    Find the first radiator to get steam. Time it from boiler start until it gets the steam. Advise back with the time. This will be very telling information.

    Just curious what that info would indicate?

  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Tolik said:

    Fred said:

    I suspect someone along the way has taken the spring off of the Cut-in mechinism and stretched it or something. If, by chance you have an old Pressuretrol laying around it would be interesting to take the spring out of it and change it out with the one on your boiler and see if that corrects the cut-in adjustment.

    Nahh, nothing extra. Before we moved into this house I didn't know what that things such as pressuretrol existed let alone what it does. Now my wife thinks I'm crazy for trying to learn so much about this.

    I can try and take out the spring and compress it or stretch it, but I'm not sure which way to go, or if that's even a good idea.
    I wouldn't try to do anything with the spring that's on there but that's the only adjustment on the Cut-in. If you can find a another spring somewhere, that will probably fix the cut-in problem. otherwise you will probably have to put a new Pressuretrol on.

  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
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    Hatterasguy said:

    I'd like to see if the main venting is the primary driver for the very fast pressure rise or whether the main venting is acceptable and the problem is coming from the convectors.

    As far as I can tell there is no venting, other then the radiator air vents.
  • Fred
    Fred Member Posts: 8,542
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    Tolik said:

    Hatterasguy said:

    I'd like to see if the main venting is the primary driver for the very fast pressure rise or whether the main venting is acceptable and the problem is coming from the convectors.

    As far as I can tell there is no venting, other then the radiator air vents.
    Tell me again why you haven't put some Main vents on? That will probably take care of the pressure problem or go a long way towards fixing it.

  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 7,002
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    Agreed....it a mess! You'd be well-served getting John from Gateway out there. They're on Find A Contractor and service your area. They'll straighten it out. Mad Dog
    Consulting by Mad Dog & Matt Jr.
    RobG
  • Tolik
    Tolik Member Posts: 85
    edited January 2015
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    Hatterasguy said:

    Then, my suspicion is that the boiler will trip on pressure before one ounce of steam reaches the convectors.

    I turned on the boiler, its been off for about four hours. On the first cycle, about 15 min, all but two (I'll have to re-confirm since I couldn't check kid's room right now) radiators got warm/hot. Then it cut-out on pressure. Now its short cycling on pressure since the thermostat is still calling for heat.

    So would that be an indication that the boiler is over sized. I suspect that the convector radiators do not have the capacity to hold as much steam as traditional cast iron so the pressure builds up since the boiler keeps giving it.

    Correction: ALL but one radiator get hot on first cycle. I have a speculation of why the one dosn't get hot. Its piped using a Tee of the main steam pipe. So the steam dosn't get to it till it builds enough pressure since I'm guessing it dosn't travel sideways =). Also its piped in copper.

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