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BELL & GOSSETT 100 Series VS TACO 007 F5 CIRCULATOR ..photo attached

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ww
ww Member Posts: 282
edited September 2014 in THE MAIN WALL
When the heat is turned on there is a leak near the seal that fills a 5 gallon bucket in a couple of days or so.

I cannot read the plate since it's painted over of the B & G 100..it looks like the 100 as per pictures. The house is a two family house with a Beckett AF Burner. Here are my questions:
1. Should I work on this one.? I've looked at videos on how to replace the seals, the whole head piece,new unit or replace it with a Taco and if so which one replaces it..the F5? All of these choices won't be too difficult for me to do.
2. I've looked at specs and find B & G is 1/12 hp and taco is 1/25 hp and there are differences as well including rate of gpm. Taco is alot less in price too..but I want to do what's the best option either way.
3. While I'm at it should I put in shutoff valves? Depending on how the pipes come off I don't know how long this will take. If they come off it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I was also thinking of just doing this without the valves since it probably will last a long time and just put the unit back on the flanges the way it was. Only downside is draining the system and guess that won't take too long..maybe have to open radiator bleeders to prevent air lock.
4. Please send me your feedback. Thanks.imageimage
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Comments

  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Replace it with the 007.

    The cost and aggravation to try to repair it aren't worth it.

    Be careful of that asbestos insulation on the pipes above it.
    Steve Thompson (Taco)Charlie from wmass
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    You will also have to go with new flanges. That boiler looks to be in tough shape, and as Ice said, be careful of the asbestos. May want to have it professionally dealt with
    Steve Thompson (Taco)Charlie from wmass
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    "" You will also have to go with new flanges. That boiler looks to be in tough shape, ""

    Nah, take the heat wrench to the flange bolts or the Amazing Saw, brush and clean the heck out of the old flanges and wire brush all the scuzz of the flange face Then, get a Wilo circulator with the big wide black circulator gaskets that will bridge any and all defects on the face of the flanges. Be sure to buy the circulator with the proper flange orientation.

    I switched to Wilo's because I got tired of dealing with those tea pot lid gaskets that the wholesalers wouldn't stock for you. Even though two come in every circulator box and no Red Rubber ones ever come with circulators. Well, not in the last 40 years since they switched to the black rubber square cut O-rings.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    I also switched to Wilo a couple of years ago Ice, as Taco quality and pricing has been a big disapointment. There are 2 different size flanges, and the ones in the pic were the small ones. They are not the same dimension as taco, Grunfoss, Wilo, etc. He will need to measure
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
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    I surely don't miss the cork "O" rings that came with the early 007's
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Well, they made work. You always knew that you would be replacing them soon.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    @Billtwocase:

    I went to a Greet & Eat at the supply house once. The food was filling. They had Wilo circulators, Veissmann Boilers, and Califfi parts. The Wilo folks also had their ECM circulator. I saw the gaskets and switched on the spot. I saw the ECM Pump. I bought it off the table, took it home, and installed it on my boiler. 6 zones with Taco 572 Zone valves. Worked great.

    For some odd reason, my wholesaler always had fat wide Wilo gaskets. He still never stocked the standard Taco rubber ones.
  • Solid_Fuel_Man
    Solid_Fuel_Man Member Posts: 2,646
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    My supplier switched from the stupid red ones to the black full flange gaskets :# not sure if there is much difference. Still amazes me that they don't stock the square Taco gaskets.


    Serving Northern Maine HVAC & Controls. I burn wood, it smells good!
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    I was wondering why the id plate was on the bottom...if you look at the photo of the motor above you will see a glaring error...the lubrication tubes are on the bottom. Whoever installed this put the motor upside down. I took it off yesterday and am checking it out. There was no noise so looks ok. I am lubing the motor.

    I may just buy a new circulator nose and put it on the motor so after I drain the system I can just install it. Still thinking about not putting in valves to close off water because if may be too much trouble and who knows if I'll swap out this boiler in the future.
    I'll see what happens and what kind of parts are available at the supply house.

    I inquired about not seeing any lube points before and was told that some motors don't have them and are lubed by the front lube point. Can't listen to everything you're told..I know that so well.

    Consequently the electric connector will be on the bottom of unit now since the wires exit from one side only. In most tutorials and videos that is on the top..but this must be an older motor.

    Please share your comments on this latest development.
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 705
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    I was reading your comments about the leaking B & G 100 series pump. You can replace the entire pump with a Taco equivalent 110 pump which is a three piece pump with a mechanical seal. Alternatively, you can substitute with a maintenance free wet rotor 007, which has slightly less capacity, or the 0010 pump with the same operating characteristics as the B & G 100 series pump.

    However, replacing the seal part # SLK-ABCDE-100 for your B & G pump will be the most cost effective approach to mitigating the problem. Why replace the entire pump if you don't have too? If you would like to take advantage of some of the intelligent pumps available, replacing the B & G pump with a more efficient pump would be a excellent solution with a great return on your investment.

    Unfortunately, I don't know too much about your system; I'm assuming the B & G 100 is a system pump, and you're zoning with zone-valves. If you are, you might consider using the Taco 0010 VDT ( Variable Speed Delta-T) pump that will adjust the flow based on load. Because zone-valves are constantly opening and closing, a delta-T pump will slow down when the system return water is at the design delta-T set point.

    If you would like to discuss further, call Taco tech support; they are very knowledgeable, and staffed to handle the call.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    @Joe Mattiello:

    Joe, I'd repair a broken heart if it was worth it. That circulator was installed before my four children were born and most of them now have children.

    The coupler is shot from all the iron filings all over the bearing assembly. Then, there's the issue of the motor bushings. Dead from over oiling. Or not being oiled at all. The ones that never get replaced because the coupler died from being out of alignment with the bearing assembly shaft. Then, there's getting that impellor off without breaking it or bending it to make it unusable.

    Come to think of it, it might be older than the current owner.

    Its like I used to say about a bad running Beckett oil burner, The solution was a brand new Carlin EZ-1.

    The solution for an antique B&G Series 100 circulator is a brand new Taco 007. Last time I bought one (before I retired), I think I could buy 3 007's for the cost of a new Series 100.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    Sounds about right Ice (sorry Joe :)). In CT right now we have a utility rebate program that makes a Bumblebee or other ECM pump cost LESS than a 007. I would certainly be changing those flanges if possible..iso ball valve...if it's not too painful to keep the flange to flange spread correct.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    Bob, do you have a link to that rebate program? I'd love to try and get something similar going here in NM.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    Will look. My wholesalers take it right off the cost at the counter. In the beginning we had to submit the forms.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    Www.energizect.com

    Hope that helps!
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    There you go. I am so clunky at computer stuff :)
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    Please take a look at this additional photo. I was thinking of that 007 and called taco and they said it was too small..and the specs are different too..there was another taco similar to the 100 and alot more in price than others...i am going to see if this works out...may be changing the whole boiler at some point..but i think is may be a good idea to put in valves to be able to take the circulator out without draining the system again...

    This is where I am at now...the distance between the flanges is 6 1/2 inches..and the distance between the two fittings is 17 inches..so i figure I'll put in some valves and take care of that if I can get off the two nipples with the flanges on them. I used some penetrating oil and set up a sympathetic vibration with hammers on both sides of fitting and will see if pipe wrenches will work with a pipe extension...may have to use heat..don't know.

    I can always just fit the motor in with a new front assembly and do nothing but if something goes wrong then I'll have to do it all over and the draining too. I would get a new set up but the motor is fine after oiling and I bench tested it.

    In the meantime the plan is this. If I get these nipples with the flanges off..I'll just fit a pipe in between with a union for now while I'm getting parts..seems you have to go to different places to get all you want..or order online..so I can use the boiler to make hot water if I fill it up to the top of the boiler without the need of the circulator since the heat is off.
  • SWEI
    SWEI Member Posts: 7,356
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    As Joe pointed out above, the closest match for a Series 100 in the wet rotor line would be the 0010, so by that standard the 007 is indeed "too small." The majority of residential applications where the Series 100 was installed were overpumped, and for those the 007 (or even a 005) will do a better job. Size matters.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    The spread between your flanges the same for anything modern btw? Once in a blue moon I came across the B&Gs with a wider spread. I can't recall the series or the dimensions...possibly an older style 100?
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    all good points..hopefully i'll be able to get these nipples with the flanges off and put the temporary bypass pipe in place so that i can sit back and figure out the best plan of attack...while having hot water from the boiler too..with no inconvenience.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    alot of these spreads i see with the one inch flange is the same and most of the other pumps claim to fit right in.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    so what you are saying swei is that the pump may be too big...i inquired about that at taco too..because i made an example of the fact that just because i see a part in place that doesn't mean it is correct.
    i described location and was told that was too small...but i guess all the pipe dimensions could be added up, the water volume, height etc and you could find the right size circulator. sort of the like the dead men steam area where you have to check all this too.

    that's another valid point..and if i had all these pumps i'd keep changing them and test them all..i like putting things together and taking them apart...i notice the taco has a removeable cartridge that is almost the same price as the pump and cartridge...but i've used taco controls and they work good.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Too small? How was that determined? Just because you are replacing a Series 100, doesn't mean the Series 100 wasn't already grossly over sized. That's like saying that red cars are faster than white cars. There's a lot of tradespeople that replaced Series 100 circulators with 007's for years and never had a problem. That was all that was available and what was stocked.

    I'm not saying that there is no possibility that the 007 isn't too small. But in the experience of many long past, when all these new Placer Hydraulic Mining circulators came on the scene, the old 007 worked just fine.

    How much pressure does it take to push 4 GPM through a10' length of 1 1/2" pipe? How much pressure does it take to push 4 GPM through a 10' length of 1/2" CTS Heat PEX? A whole lot more to push it through the PEX. Its like drinking a coke through a cocktail straw and switching to the one you get with a Biggie Coke.

    That's why you need BF Pumps to shove it along. Then. they cavitate like crazy while doing it, adding air/gas to the water.

    Back to basics. Like the pitcher pump beside the sink in the old beach shack. Once you primed it, the water just kept on coming as long as you pumped the handle.
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    If you look at pump curves (to the OP), the 0010 is a closer match to the B&G. Which is stll a beast. Maybe you need it, maybe you don't. A site eval can determine.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    The flanges connecting to the pump body are 6 1/2 inches apart...can i just replace those with a flange that has the shutoff valve built in..wondering if the clearance is the same and won't have to remove the piping...just replace the old flanges with the new flange shut off valve retaining the same 6 1/2 inch clearance?..will call taco or b and g rep and see.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    i took the circulator assembly off the motor and found that the shaft attached to the impeller is hard to turn...should this move freely?
  • Bob Bona_4
    Bob Bona_4 Member Posts: 2,083
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    The impeller should turn smoothly but not freewheel.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    UPDATE...ok Bob..thanks..the impeller doesn't free wheel and is hard to turn..

    Last night I tapped the fittings with a hammer backed up with another one behind it and put on penetrating oil. this morning I used two pipe wrenches...one against the wall and the other one with a 3 foot pipe...both came off. On the way to get some fittings to set up the bypass pipe.

    Then I can sift out all my needs and pick up the other parts..when I'm ready will just put them in. In the meantime I'll have hot water and won't need the heat.

    The other reason for this is that upstairs I'm going to replace the sweated in half inch pipe with one inch pipe on the two far radiators and won't have to partially redrain the system again.

    By the way..when I refill the system..I was reading I have to put in a rust additive inhibitor...and will these radiators fill up easily or will i have to follow a procedure?...I'll make sure I go around and close all the bleeders since I opened them due to air lock when draining the system before I refill.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    People get in trouble when they replace a series 100 with a 007 on a monoflow system. Just a thought.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Here's another thought. Nowhere is it mentioned that it is a Monoflow System. It is a fair assumption that it is. Installed possibly by someone who might have gone to the 2 day IBR school. (I never went, I just bought the books). The Yellow #240 hydronic design guide had a whole section on "One Pipe Systems". The true name for Mono-flow systems. Because there is only "one pipe" that is the main. If you try to get the old yellow book, you're out of luck because the old yellow one has been replaced with a white one and some was put into the H-22 heat loss guide. But it stated that the best practice was to split mains into two. You may only need a 1" main, but you split it into two with 1 1/4 being the preferred pipe for a better, less restrictive flow. And the split made two 1" mains. That system went in during the Late 1940's to the very early 1960's. That circulator looks like an either used or rebuilt. Whomever installed it didn't have sense enough to install it with the oil cups pointing up.

    Maybe that was a P-3 B&G with those standard flanges. If it was and you put a plastic or standard coupler on it, the springs wear off and break. But the owner wanted to repair it. I'm so cheap that I consider it wasteful to replace my work boots before I need to worry about my sox getting wet. From the bottom. That motor looks like a Sid Harvey Re-build where they didn't mask off the motor plate and just sprayed over it. They didn't come like that when new. If it was worth the effort to rebuild that, I would. It never was. If you didn't want it that way, you paid extra for a new one.

    Most of the problems with Mono-Flow systems not working and needing to change a pump, were already in the system.
  • Paul48
    Paul48 Member Posts: 4,469
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    What is going on here? This site has never been like this. Everyone has become defensive and competative. It never worked like that, before. It was a positive experience, with the total responses adding up to a real good anwer for the OP. I posted that, because it had not been mentioned whether or not it was a monoflow system, and that is something to consider. It had nothing to do with the merits of rebuilding or not rebuilding the original circ. It was not intended to select one circ over another, or preclude the selection of any particular circ. It is just something to consider when replacing a circ on a working system.

    Ross_24
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    Take a look at the new photo of bypass pipe. Filled boiler up and hot water fine. Now will look into parts at me leisure. I don't like going to places and picking up parts then having to run back to put them in...especially if they give me a price that's way out of line.

    I may just order them all from online and wait..will see. Once I get all the valves,flanges,nipples and bearing assembly then I'll put it all together and put the parts in.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    I guess that's pointed at me.

    There's group of people that some members of my family are familiar with. They have a cherished saying that should apply here:
    "Take what you need, and leave the rest."

    Go back and read the original post and the later photos that are posted. The poster asked for suggestions on what to do. What the OP does will not materially change my life in any way regardless of what route he takes. We in business or life always say "Time Is Money". If someone charges $60.00 per hour, that's a Dollar ($1.00) per minute. How much did someone pay for those nipples and Union AFTER they went to the trouble of removing the old flanges with the red rubber gaskets all stuck to the flanges? Going and coming back plus time spent frudging, at $1.00 a minute will buy a heavily discounted 007. One of my many sayings is about the fact that it's a good thing they don't do it like THAT anymore. I can't believe it works. Then think of about at least 50 applications that are exactly the same where it has been working since before I knew about Plumbing when my 7th grade Metal Shop teacher mentioned stinky vent pipes.

    None of us are born knowing anything (except how to suck). We learn from others and each other. My friends also say that you can't keep it unless you give it away. I don't charge for my opinions. And you know what opinions are like, and every one has one.
  • Canucker
    Canucker Member Posts: 722
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    Paul48 said:

    What is going on here? This site has never been like this. Everyone has become defensive and competative. It never worked like that, before. It was a positive experience, with the total responses adding up to a real good anwer for the OP. I posted that, because it had not been mentioned whether or not it was a monoflow system, and that is something to consider. It had nothing to do with the merits of rebuilding or not rebuilding the original circ. It was not intended to select one circ over another, or preclude the selection of any particular circ. It is just something to consider when replacing a circ on a working system.

    I didn't see it that way, I thought Ice was agreeing with you, just adding more info.
    You can have it good, fast or cheap. Pick two
  • Joe Mattiello
    Joe Mattiello Member Posts: 705
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    Good Morning
    looks like some great feed back!! The heating help website's greatest attribute id people in in the industry donating their time, and knowledge to strangers. I'm delighted so many people are willing to share their industry experience, and help the people that have questions. I can honestly say, I am constantly searching for information, and rely on smart people like the ones that visit this valuable site.

    As for this application specifically, I was able to ascertain, the B&G 100 has kept many babies warm while growing up to be fine Tax paying citizens, and now the pump needs to rest in peace. If that is the case, the 0010 will be a good replacement, even if monoflo tees are located in the system. However, generally speaking, the 007 would be challenged if monoflo tees are used, because of the additional pressure drop through the monoflo tees are in series. Of course I would need to know the quantity to qualify that statement, but as a good rule of thumb, the 0010 usually has enough capacity to overcome the additional pressure drop.

    Hopefully, this last tidbit of information enables you to make informed decisions on how to finally put the old work horse to rest, and replace it with a another workhorse that will keep the next generation of children warm.
    Joe Mattiello
    N. E. Regional Manger, Commercial Products
    Taco Comfort Solutions
    Bob Bona_4
  • unclejohn
    unclejohn Member Posts: 1,833
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    Since you have gotten this far, pump out flanges off. I would just go ahead and drop in the taco 007 and hold up on the isolation valves for when you replace the boiler most likely next year. That way you won't be wasting a valve or doing extra work. Most likely if you get another cast iron boiler the 007 is whats going to be on it. So you will have a spare circ.
    icesailor
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    Back in the last Century, in the early 1980's, I went to a seminar that was put on by Emerson-Swan and Taco. I think that Dan was there. I remember being told that 007's were a direct replacement for almost ALL B&B Series 100 applications. Before the 007's and wet rotor designs, the only circulators we ever saw were Series 100's and Taco 110's. The pump curves are similar to a 007. The operating ranges are the same.

    James Watt didn't invent the steam engine to power train engines, it was designed to pump water out of mines so the miners didn't drown. With a big screw in a shaft that spun. Usually connected to cross pieces with mules pulling on the shaft. Cranberry growers used "Bog Pumps" that were basically a large post hole or tree planting auger stuck below the water in a bog pond and spun in an enclosed pipe. The water overflowed the auger and ran into the bog ditches. The theory hasn't changed. The present use of hydraulic mining pumps in modern undersized heating systems is just to overcome the resistance of the small piping.
  • ww
    ww Member Posts: 282
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    On January 8th IceSailor guided me on another thread I posted regarding piping on radiators...this is an excerpt..you can read the whole thread looking at discussions...

    People that don't understand that the water flow through a gravity system without a pump might have the same flow as a properly designed system with a pump. Many look at all that water and thing that a bigger pump will do the job better. When in fact, it will make it worse. There's very little restriction in the 1 1/4" gravity pipes but a ton of it in the 1/2" pipes. I'll bet that the circulator is grossly oversized. If it was a three speed circulator, I bet the radiators would start working if they ran the pump on the lowest speed. Or, but a 4-way mixer on it and ran the system circulator on ODR. To prove my point, open the flow check so the system runs on gravity. Disconnect power to the circulator. Set the high limit to 140 degrees and let it run. In a few hours, both those radiators will be as toasty as the rest of them. Once the temperature evens out, the system will balance out.

    I turned the handle on the flo check valve which is B & G FA7..see photo. The handle just keeps turning. There is a diagram on the valve that you can see on this picture of valve with an arrow showing to go counterclockwise for gravity flow...

    I want to try the system utilizing gravity without any circulator attached as it is now.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
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    If it is painted red and a B&G, and has a lever type fitting on the top that is spinning but the shaft is not, you must carefully remove the lever. There will be a small brass shaft rising out of the valve with a brass packing nut. With a small pair of pliers, carefully see if it will turn. Don't try too hard. Don't be rough. If it won't co operate, give it some Kroil. After the Kroil, try to loosen the packing nut. Box end wrenches or tube wrenches work best.

    The question is, did the lever on the shaft rise up off the top of the valve. Some don't have an internal stop and will keep spinning. To get them back down, you have to push down on the lever and shaft to engage the threads. Its not for the faint of heart. Most of us won't touch the lever unless we have to. To drain for the winter or to drain and work on the system. If something gets under the seat, the whole house will get hot. From the tiniest piece of debris you will ever see. If you just want to see it to see it, take my word for it. It works. If something goes wrong and you can't stop it from running on gravity flow, you'll be going crazy. It always means replacing the valve.