BELL & GOSSETT 100 Series VS TACO 007 F5 CIRCULATOR ..photo attached

ww

ok..thanks..I'll take a look at it..I have posted some photos of the valve...there is a handle on the top that spins...it isn't a lever that goes up and down...and there is a set screw..when screw is taken out the handle does not come off...so put it back.

I just would be curious to see this work providing it doesn't take much trouble to do..i see what you say about a spec of dirt and what havoc that could cause..heating up the house and causing a new valve change.

Logically speaking..I'd like to see this work if I can...when these radiators get hot..in the whole house with just gravity...the explanation of a pump that isn't too big when installed will be dramatically shown...since the radiators would get hot without a circulator...a small push will do wonders.. I don't doubt that it will happen though and I believe what you say..I just like to see how things work.

I'm grasping these theories and like to see all things in action.

There is an expansion tank with a drain valve on the ceiling shown in one of the photos. I think it may be time to change this tank..it's been around a long time and read the the bladders swell..any suggestions on that ..and just how important this unit is to the system...?

I saw one today at my friends house and it was a small tank with no drain valve at all.

looks like not too hard a thing to do..one sweat fitting.

JohnNY

I'm a flag-waving Taco guy and I routinely replace B&G 100s with Taco 0010s.
In fact, I have 6 service trucks on the road and our stock orders always include a dozen of each: 007 & 0010.
The curves on those two pumps cover lots and lots of flow requirements at the residential/light commercial level.

Not that there's anything wrong with B&G at all. It's just a stock decision we made based on the service guys' familiarity with the model numbers at this point.

I've never had any luck with Grundfos. A couple of the larger system pumps, installations larger than 1-2 family homes, have suffered shaft seizures that cost me money to fix.

Leaves a bad taste after the second one.

ww

ok..thanks..i see the pump curve chart..where are the pump numbers showing where they fall in the chart?

My readings here and other research shows that the taco 0010 replaces the b and g series 10. Providing that the pump was the correct one to begin with is what I'm looking at. I read that alot of these pumps were oversized to begin with.

I'm working on piping the flange setup to fit between a 16 3/4 inch space between the top and bottom fittings and looking at that and making a drawing...using standard nipples and ball valves is tight...i see these flange fittings too and looking into them..although kind of high. you can see the photo posted.

hopefully I'll locate a ball valve with a narrower distance between the two thread sides that will give me more space. If I don't do this setup it's not the end of the world...but it makes things easier if you have to take the pump off.

SWEI

http://www.supplyhouse.com/pex/control/search/~SEARCH_STRING=webstone flange

Bob Bona_4

Yup, the Webstone ball valve/circ flanges are great. Every install I do gets 'em.

RobG

The cost verses benefit (in time) makes them well worth every penny, to both the customer and the contractor.

Rob

icesailor

Bob Bona said:

Yup, the Webstone ball valve/circ flanges are great. Every install I do gets 'em.

If you do that, you should make yourself a "rig" to put on the isolating flanges that go on the purge ports so you can put gauges on either side of the circulator so you can see how much you are over pumping and wasting money. 007's and 0010's deliver the same head pressure 4.34#. A 0010 will deliver 33 GPM with no back/head pressure and a 007 delivers 23 GPM.

Isn't a GPM flowing for an hour equal to 10,000 BTU's per hour?

Do you need a pump delivering 230,000 BTU's into a circuit? Or through a 80,000 BTU boiler? Unless you need to overcome huge amounts of restriction, you shouldn't need it.

If you're going to use purge ports on your isolation flanges, put them to good use. Put pressure gauges on them and learn what is going on inside your hydronic heating system.

They sell 3/4" Female Hose Adapter fittings. Use long insert tridicator gauges and you can see the pressure drop AND the Delta T temperatures.

Don't let a Hackaroo make you look like a fool when you are called to figure out why some installers Kindergarten art is all wrong. Understand what you're doing.

ww

Very good point with the purge ports...will see about the costs of valves,etc...If I just get the regular ball valves I'll fit them in with all the nipples I have. I have stuff around too and sometimes use what I have around here...I see when you put costs in labor,etc..it's a different thing too...If it takes me longer it doesn't bother me too much.

By the way I copied out that pump curve chart that JohnNY sent..the one you refer to in comparisons...and it's easy to see what you are talking about with gpms,etc..I understand why this 007 is high on your list by looking at the comparisons.

It makes good horse sense that if an old system could work by gravity that it would only need not too big of a push to get the water circulating through the system..and that less gpm pushed through would allow boiler water to heat during the process allowing circulating water to be hotter consequently radiators getting hotter with less gpm put through the system..only a thought on what I am thinking by my observations.

icesailor

Understand, I don't have any problem with any other sized circulators. I just go for what will work in a situation. Nothing more.

If you want to get an idea of flow, do what I have done for years. When the boiler is hot and a zone is cold, make the circulator. Follow the heat as it travels around the main to get back to the boiler. You shouldn't have to run to follow it. Just walk. If you have to run, it might be too large a circulator.

ww

I posted a photo previously of the bypass pipe which I put in to take the place of the circulator temporarily...it seems now that since that the return part of the boiler is not the preferred area to put the circulator I am looking at putting it at the supply side.

It seems alot of packaged boilers just had them set up that way so I read.

Readings and discussions prompt me regarding this issue. I have some diagrams to look at and welcome your input on this.

I'm pleased that I put in the so called bypass pipe if we can call it that later on...because I may have put the circulator in the not preferred position...although readings say that both will work fine..but may cause bleeding and air issues if put in the return side. Take a look at some of those photos posted.

icesailor

Progress not perfection.

How long did it work where it was before you came along?

If you think that you will be able to tell if it works better after you move it because someone said it would, don't be disappointed if you don't notice any difference.

SWEI

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Pressure/DifferentialPressure/Gages/Series4000 makes a very nice jig. Patience on eBay will reward you -- they do make a couple of models that read directly in feet of head.

icesailor

"" they do make a couple of models that read directly in feet of head. ""

For $400.00 bucks, I'll use a less than $20.00 pressure gauge and multiply the pressure by 2.31 to get the head pressure.

Those of us who worked in third world country plumbing and heating would never be able to afford something like that. Let alone cart it on a 100,000 mile ride in our work vans.

SWEI

I'll send a picture of the setup I scored on eBay last week. It's supposed to arrive on Tuesday. Patience pays off. I've waited 3+ years on some items there.

SWEI

A pair of flare x GHT adapters and it's ready for action.

Solid_Fuel_Man

Yes you still haven't told us what the circulator is connected to. Series fin tube? Monoflow convectors? Reverse return CI rads? At this point it's a shot in the dark. The 100 is like a 0010 which may be oversized and you could use a 007, tell us more or get some pics of the distribution system/radiation.

Taylor

ww

there are some pics posted...there is a supply and return going to the radiators which are cast iron type.

ww

I've been to a couple of plumbing supply houses and they both showed me the same shut off valve. I'll need a straight valve for hot water..they showed me a steam valve and said i could use it..contrary to what i was told at tech support. are they just looking for a bill of goods here?..someone said that most wouldn't know but i was too smart and ask too many questions...i'll keep looking for the valve to put in.

ww

I got back to this job...I put in the Taco 007 F5 circulator...got some isolation valves and hooked them up to the taco Freedom Flanges and it worked out fine.

I opted for that in place of the valve all in one in case the valve failed it would mean I'd have to replace both again and this way presented no problem.

I previously drained the expansion tank and refilled it again.

I refilled the system and bled all the radiators cold.The pressure on the gauge was 12 or a bit higher when cold...

I tested the heating system yesterday. I set the aquastat to lo 150 to high 180..I moved the lo down 10 degrees to see what the temperature gauge said compared to the reading...seems like at 150 the gauge says 160.

I set the thermostat to call for heat. When the temperature hit the high the circulator went on..I tested voltage at circulator connections with meter when the call for the circulator kicked in and the water was flowing out of supply lines to mains.

I followed the supply lines on both side and felt the hot water getting into the pipes. I bled the radiators again when hot and all had no air in them. I followed the heat all the way across the main supply lines and figured on what radiators got hot fastest.

The three radiators at the far end of the house all got hot but took the longest. The mains in the basement are in a small area between a block wall and a sheet rock wall with no insulation.

The pipes and room there are very cold ..much colder than the ambient temperature outside of 49 degrees.

I have to see the best way to insulate that area since the hot water coming from boiler takes a longer time to heat the radiators since it's so cold. One of the radiators in the hall is piped off the main leading from the front of the house back ten feet toward the boiler again.

My observations are this..
1. All the radiators got hot in the house.
2. All the mains in the basement were very hot..and the basement was warmer than ever. I've read that the pipes in basement with no insulation help to heat up the first floor and may not help in heat savings if you insulate them.

3. I set the thermostat at 68 for the test..the thermostat is in the front room and when it read 67 all the radiators in the house were hot. The pressure gauge read almost 21 when all the radiators were hot.

4. I don't hear the expansion tank gurgling like it did before since there is no air in the system or leaks.


If I left the heat on all the time the radiators would be quicker to warm...but since I don't use heat until it gets really cold it takes more time. I'm figuring the optimum scenario regarding that and the most cost effective.

Don't forget I previously had a leak in the B and G 100 series pump. After reviewing graph charts, curves and doing research and gathering info from people on the site as well as tech support... I opted to try out the Taco. The isolation valves are a must for future service.

The leak caused refilling of the boiler and consequently air in the system..leading to some other problems maintaining pressure.

Finally..this job is not for someone who doesn't have somewhat of a command of plumbing skills, the proper use of leverage and connection tightening techniques, the ability to figure out things...and it wouldn't hurt if you were really strong physically.

But then again that's how we get these skills...reading,this Heating Help site interaction,videos and hands on.

Luckily with the thirst for knowledge and some ability we can all learn how to be successful in all these endeavors we undertake and I thank you all for your input and guidance.

icesailor

"" I set the thermostat to call for heat. When the temperature hit the high the circulator went on..I tested voltage at circulator connections with meter when the call for the circulator kicked in and the water was flowing out of supply lines to mains.""

If the circulator started when the aquastat hit "HI", its wired wrong. It should start when the system hits the "LO" or operating setting. The circulator should always be operating when the temperature is above the operating temperature. Even when the boiler is shut off and cycling. As long as their is a call for heat, the circulator should be running.

icesailor

You need to lower the "LO" or operating temperature down to 140 degrees to get the circulator and system to run longer. The longer it pumps, the more balanced it becomes. The greater the spread, the better and more efficient it works. You can even drop the "Hi" to 170 degrees and see how that works. Then, 160 degrees. The room thermostats control the circulator.

Try that first before you do anything drastic. You might find that it works like the fine thing that it already was.

Progress, not perfection (some of us say).

RobG

icesailor said:

"" I set the thermostat to call for heat. When the temperature hit the high the circulator went on..I tested voltage at circulator connections with meter when the call for the circulator kicked in and the water was flowing out of supply lines to mains.""

If the circulator started when the aquastat hit "HI", its wired wrong. It should start when the system hits the "LO" or operating setting. The circulator should always be operating when the temperature is above the operating temperature. Even when the boiler is shut off and cycling. As long as their is a call for heat, the circulator should be running.

I have not re-read the post but it could be a reverse acting aquastat to prevent condensation. It may prevent condensing but it's a good way to throw slugs of cold water into a hot boiler.
I'm a believer in thermal bypasses however I have seen my share of RA aquastats to know that they can be used as a Band-Aid.

Rob

icesailor

If there is no thermal by-pass already installed on the boiler, its cheaper to change the settings to see how it works. It cost a lot of money to add a thermal by-pass on an old boiler, and may not work as well as just an electrical control already in place.

If it is an antique with the old way of wiring with two "A"s and a "B", the thermostat and the "A" on the tankless or boiler runs the burner and circulator (when wired that way). The "B" acts as the "reverse acting" and the circulator is wired through it. When the water in the boiler starts to drop in temperature, the circulator stops until it catches up with the differential of the "B" control. The other "A" is the High Limit. The burner runs all the time until the call is satisfied. The circulators are run and controlled through 845 or equivalent relays.

If the antique is wired by Sparky that doesn't know, and it has say 4 zones, one zone will be wired properly, the others are direct wired and run no matter what the boiler temperature is. You need to run the dry contacts on an 845 through #5 and #6. The same as the ZC/ZR on the modern ones today.

If the person in question has it so that the circulator doesn't start until the boiler reaches high limit and doesn't start when the operating/LO closes, it is wired wrong. No matter what world it is installed in.

ww

I guess i may have been looking at the high temp and saw it go low fast ...and the circulator was on at that time..while checking with the voltmeter...and didn't stay on all the time .

..but i just did this test...

i put the thermostat on 70 to call for heat..i set the low at 150 and high at 180..when the boiler temp was going toward 150..the circulator went on...for less than a half minute..then went off..

i thought maybe some lockout problem or something..with too close differential..so i set the low at 120 and the high at 180..so far the circulator is working all the time..thermostat not satisfied yet but all radiators in house hot already...

so there must be some problem with the low aquastat....a differential problem maybe...an intermittent circulator lockout problem...i see that you should at least have 20 difference..but have used 30 before.

the water gets to the radiators quickly..but not as hot..since low temp is less now...any ideas?..will look at instructions for the aquastat internal settings.

icesailor

NO.

The electrical is working properly. Set the "LO" to 140 degrees and the "HI" to 170. Turn up the thermostat. The burner and the circulator should start. As cold water comes in to the boiler, it will be sensed and the circulator will stop BUT THE BURNER WILL CONTINUE TO RUN!!! As the boiler temperature goes up, the circulator will start again. It will run for some time again. Then, it might stop again. Cycling until the "LO" Temperature is achieved. If you have one small zone running and the thermostat is set for 80 degrees, the circulator might stop and the burner will either stop too or continue to run. The burner will either stop on the "HI" or will continue to run because of a differential in the "LO" part of the controls.

Unless I am missing something, your electrical's are working as designed.

ww

ok..so that must have been happening when i set it to 150/180 then..will try those numbers...all i know is this..

the heat comes to the radiators throughout the house quickly..all the discussion regarding the Taco 007 f5 proved correct..the curves and gpm's..etc...so far so good...what i've gained also is a knowledge of every supply line and return line and what should be happening with them as i followed the heat throughout the house.

the other day i was in my friends house..he showed me his new boiler...i took a look at it...he has the taco 007 f5 as well..

icesailor

That won't be the first 007 Circulator you will notice that is doing Yeoman's service in a heating system.

ww

I did this test today.

1. i turned the thermostat to not call for heat.
2. I set the aquastat low and hi to 140/170 and let boiler heat up.
3. I set the thermostat to call for heat.
4. I checked the boiler and it was off and the gauge read 170.
5. circulator was off but must have come on since pipe supply going out to radiators was hot for about 10 feet.
6. the boiler still on 170 and comes on for 5 seconds and goes off.
7. circulator not on. tested with voltmeter at terminals.
8. From what I read it says the circulator should be on and it makes sense it does.

I'm still wondering if something is wrong with these aquastats..I will check the thermostat connections at thermostat and also the relay on burner...may have to cross thermostat wires to see if there is a problem with that.

It would make sense that the circulator should be on alot more than it is..not 20 seconds..and the guides say it should be on when there is a call for heat. maybe the primary control thermostat connections or some intermittent problem there?

icesailor

You need a professional to figure it out.

If the thermostat is calling for heat, the circulator should be running continuously until the heat call is satisfied. You really need someone that understands the operation. Its too easy for someone to miss a step.

That control can have a "Issue" with a bad connection and do what you describe. But that is only a guess. No need to waste a good control.

ww

I bypassed the thermostat at the relay in basement. circulator stayed on continuously and the other three radiators heated up in 5 minutes. I don't need heat now so when I can I'll check the wiring from the thermostat to relay for intermittent problem.

If there is no problem there then there is something with the honeywell magicstat thermostat. If the thermostat is no good after I check it I'll pick up a new one and that should solve the problem..hopefully.

I'm waiting for the radiators to cool down..and then I'll retry the test again with the thermostat connections working. I'll then time how long it takes to get heat to all the radiators. I'm hoping it will be pretty quick.

this boiler doesn't seem to be able to keep up with the demand for the hot water going into the pipes...as it builds in temperature the circulator can go on for a bit..and when it goes below the low setting the circulator goes off and builds up the heat again and comes back on.

ww

i understand that the circulator should be running continuously until the call for heat is satisfied but that's providing the boiler temperature hits the low number..if not it will be off until it comes up to that..correct?..

I think that's why when the circulator came on when it was at the high level aquastat reading is that the boiler temp was allowed to rise to the high aquastat reading...after that happened..the thermostat was put on..that's why the circulator came on at the high reading...and cut out once the temp reached the low reading..and came back on when it went up again.

I imagine as you explained before this cycle would happen as the boiler delivered more hot water to the radiators...and eventually the circulator would stay on longer as the water got hotter and the return water into the boiler was hotter. once the thermostat number was satisfied the boiler would go off.

Once the weather is cold enough for me to leave the settings on 140 to 170 or a bit higher permanently then things will even out here I'm sure. I just don't call for heat now and keep the aquastat with low set at 90 and hi at 120 just to make hot water and i get plenty. If i called for some heat all the time the water would be warm in radiators rather than room temperature or colder and heating would accelerate at a faster pace.

i wonder if there is a boiler that makes hot water so fast that the water takes no time to heat at all and heats the radiators in a few minutes keeping the circulator going until the temperature is satisfied at the thermostat?..i guess the energy use may be too much...but with all the technology i'm sure there must be something close.