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First timer with questions

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hotfoot
hotfoot Member Posts: 19
in Radiant Heating
Hello,

I have been on "The Wall" to see what I can figure out on my own without having to ask 1000 questions. I think that I have done ok so far but want to see what your thoughts are?

I have assembled my system following my friends schematic but after reading some, think that maybe a couple things should be changed?



System:

Lochinvar WHN055 Boiler

Taco ZVC403 Relay 24V 3 zone

Lochinvar SIT050 Indirect Tank

Honeywell TH1100DV1100 thermostats

Caleffi Z55 Zone valves



3 Circulatory Pumps, all have 3 speed options, so I assume that they are not variable speed.

1. Pulling water into the system after the air seperator

2. Pulling water from the system to feed back into the boiler

3. Pushing water into the DHW (I've read that it is better to pull the water, should this pump be relocated?)



A couple of questions:

1. The Taco is telling me to connect the Aquastat from my DHW tank to zone 3(priority)

The Boiler is also asking me to connect the DHW sensor to it?

Which one should it go to or can I do both?



2. I already ran 12ga wire from the outputs on the line voltage to the appropriate circ pumps. Is this right?



3. Zone valves- My zone valves have 4 screws, I think 2 from the Taco to each zone, do I use the ones labeled motor to go somewhere?



4. Taco- zone valves, do I jumper wire 3 & 4 since I think that my valves are a 2 wire setup?



5. Taco- do I also jumper the 3 & 4 wire of zone 3?



6. Taco- There are some spots for end switches, zone 3 pump end switch and pump end switch? What are these for?



7. Boiler- Heat/Loop Demand, what are these?



8. Boiler- BLR Pump out, what is this? I think it is for a variable speed circ pump but I'm not sure. Does this work with the System pump speed control?



Thank you so much for all the knowledge that I've gained here already and for any light you can shed onto these questions.

Comments

  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Control Logic

    As for your questions about circulator placement,it has more to do with the location of the expansion tank than whether you are pushing or pulling.If you post piping pictures it would help.



    The way the controls work are as follows;

    When the t-stat calls for heat it closes the circuit where you have wired the t-stats. The controller then sends power to terminal 1 (neutral on 2) which activates the motor on the zone valve. If you have a 4 wire zone valve, the "end switch" wires will be connected the corresponding 3 and 4 terminals on the taco controller. If you don't have a 4 wire zone valve, you can jumper terminals 3 and 4. This tells the controller the valve is open.

    Once all this has happened, the taco controller will close the "X-X" terminal to tell the boiler it needs heat. It sounds like you would be connecting this to the "heat loop demand" terminals on the boiler.

    The boiler should control the DHW  using a sensor. The Taco should not be involved.

    It is hard to tell if you have the circs wired correctly without a piping diagram. Unless your circ is capable of 0-10 VDC control (most are not) it should not be wired there.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    System picture

    Thank you for the response. I will attach some pictures here but things got a little tight so I can take time and try to mark the picture a little better later?
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Circs

    Could you describe the flow of each circ?

    left, right, up, down?
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Layout Labeled

    I did my best to label this. Thank you for looking.
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Circ pump wire

    Thank you Zman for replying to this. Can I use my thermostat (18ga) wire to run the circulatory pumps? I figured since it was next to the line power and the pumps are rated 0-110V that they needed something beefier? Thank you again
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Looks pretty good.

    I would not change the piping you have. I can't see them but assume you have check valves on the dhw and boiler circs? Technically the dhw circ is pumping towards your expansion tank which is incorrect. In reality, the boiler and the indirect have such low resistance that it will work just fine.

    It looks like the 120 volt power to the circulators is wired to the correct terminals. And the boiler will turn them on and off. Do you have circs with 0-10 vdc control capability. The control side of that arrangement can be 18 gauge wire but the power to the circ should be line voltage wiring, usually 12 or 14 gauge.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    That is great news

    Thank you for taking the time to look at this. Yes, all the Circ pumps have check valves installed.

    On another note, should I be concerned that my boiler supply runs right next to my natural gas supply to the Boiler? I don't think I should but would like to hear it from someone that knows better.

    The 12ga wire to power the pumps is ok, but you mention the wires to control them? I think you are referring to the wires between the Taco and the boiler?

    Thank you again!
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Gas line

    As long as the gas line is properly secured and not touching, it is not a problem running along side a hot water pipe.

    My reference to control wires was regarding your original question 8. I don't think your setup will use the boiler pump out terminal as you don't seem to have that type of pump.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Gased up

    All the pipes are well secured using uni-channel so I guess I am good there. It is not touching but is only about a 1/2" away from the hot water supply?

    Back to the Taco, I have 4 terminals on the zone valve. 2 from the Taco to control the valve and 2 from the Valve back to the Taco to tell the Taco that it is open. I am assuming that I need to connect the Pump end switch terminal in the Taco to the Boiler to tell the Boiler that heat will be needed? Is this correct

    Currently my valves are on the supply side of the zone, should I relocate these to the return side? (If I'm going to do it, now is the time, since there is nothing leading off of either of these) I have read that it is easier on the valves if they are on the return side since it is cooler? What are your thoughts on this?

    Again, thank you so much for your help
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    End switch

    Usually the  boiler would be wire to the "X-X" terminals rather than the pump switch. Either will work.

    The zone valves on supply or return is debatable. Some say the supply is better because you get less ghosting of heat.Others feel that valves last longer on the return. I don't see a right or wrong answer.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Boiler loop

    I have attached both the boiler and Taco wire diagram for each of my models.

    On the Taco- I see the X-X terminals, it states that it should go to the aquastat relay. I am not sure which of my selections on the boiler this should go to since I don't see a aquastat option?

    I saw in my Boiler manual that it states that a system sensor was included with the Boiler but I've looked numerous times and don't see it? Should this be included?
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Wires

    The wires should go to heat loop demand 1 on the boiler.

    I am not sure if system sensor comes with the boiler. I don't think you need one with your single temp heating. The boiler already knows the water temp. The system sensor is for multitemp systems and variable speed circs.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Back at it

    Thank you. I will get this wired and the exhaust installed. I really appreciate the help.I will be back shortly. Thank you again.
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    baseboard specs

    I have broken down the rooms in the basement, mostly underground except for top 2'. I input-ed the info into the Slantfin heat calculator. I am thinking of splitting the sides of the basement heating into 2 separate loops but one side will have a little bit more load and length of run on it. Do you think that this will take a restriction device of some sort?

    I will get the upstairs drawn up today and try to get a pex routing diagram as well.

    Thank you
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Circulator

    What are the approx lengths of the the loops?

    What model is the circulator? 
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Loops

    The pumps on the DHW and the system are Honeywell 3 speed circ pumps. The two lengths round trip of the basement would be around 70' & 110'.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Heaters

    By the numbers you are a bit under radiated in the TV and laundry.



    I am assuming you have the  15-58 circ (rebranded grundfos).

    With loops split, you would have flow rates of  2.2 and 2.5. More than enough for the load. That is speed one. No balancing would be required.



    Incidentally if you pipe them in series, You would have a flow rate of 3.4 gpm and a temp drop of 9.2F on speed one. Your system would run just fine in series.



    Interestingly, when you ask the software to increase the pump speed, the GPMs go up but the BTU output stays the same. Just run it on speed one and save some electricity.



    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    system split

    I didn't clarify that the Boiler would be in the utility room over the 8' baseboard heater in there. I was told that the system would not put off any heat and therefor I figured that I should heat that area. It is foreign to me because the old steam heater heated half the house from itself alone.

    Thank you again for your help
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Utility

    The boiler will not waste as much heat to the room as the old one. You could measure the piping surface area and figure out exactly how much heat you would need, I seriously doubt you need a heater.You absolutely don't need 8 '



     Remember to run the combution air pipe outside so you are not cooling the mech room with a makeup air vent.



    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    updated Pex layout

    I have added the layout for the basement that I was planning for the pex and the lengths of the runs for the basement. I also added the location of the boiler and the T's to split the basement zone.

    I also drew the upstairs configuration and the planned pex path. The upstairs loop is 146' long. Please let me know if I am missing something or if it looks like there is a better way.

    Thank you again for looking and helping me here.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Heat loss

    Your heat loss looks suspect. How many square feet? How many total btu's?



    By the math you are way under radiated. I know you  have one of those  high mass brick Denver houses. Maybe that is skewing the calcs.



    Is there any way to split the upper level into 2 loops. The lower really does not need to be, the upper is close.



    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
    edited September 2014
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    Heat loss

    I plugged in all the dimensions and variables into the Slantfin heat loss calc. It does take into consideration the 8" Brick wall but the house also only has single pane windows which I would imagine offsets that some? The house is only 1300 sq/ft upstairs. I am told that the total upstairs heat loss is 36403 BTU/hour. I think that I can still add a zone on my Taco if you think that is better? Or just split it with a T? I have attached my heat loss summary.

    Thank you again for your help.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Radiation

    The slant fin calculator seems to be working off average water temp. That works OK unless you put too many in series. A separate zone is not necessary. 2 parallel loops would help.

    Your boiler will run more efficiently at lower water temps.  I would consider adding more baseboards. it would be better if your design temp was closer to 150-160 on the coldest day. There is no down side to over radiating with a mod con boiler.



    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    layout modified

    I get what you are saying about splitting the zone into 2 sections. This way the water in each section will stay hotter since it won't go through as many baseboards? I added a couple more baseboards into the layout but am limited in space for many more? What do you think of this layout?

    Thanks again.
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Nice...

    I think that will do...
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Here we go

    Thank you so much for all your input, it has really helped me out. I have started on plumbing the basement lines and will probably be doing that for the next couple days?

    I have everything in place and wired, plumbed and think that once I have the zones in place I should be ready to flush the system? Am I missing anything?

    One last question, when I split the zones with the T's I think that it is important that the flow goes in the middle of the T and out both sides so that the flow is pushed evenly each direction, rather than in a side and out the other side and the middle, where more water would rather go straight than turn making one zone get more hot water? Does this make sense? I drew a quick image to demonstrate what I am trying to describe.

    Thank you again for all your help!
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    Condesate Pump Switch

    Hello,

    I added a condesate pump to remove the drainage from the Boiler. My question is, the pump is equipped with a switch to turn the Boiler off if it is running and excessive amount. Where would this get wired into the Boiler?
  • Zman
    Zman Member Posts: 7,569
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    Tees ect..

    To get even flow out of the tee, you are correct that the "bullhead" configuration will do that. Water is lazy it would rather go  straight than turn. The difference would be similar to adding a 90. It would add a  few equivalent feet to the attached piping.



    I would not wire the  condensate pump switch. I just don't think it is worth it. would you rather have a puddle on the floor or a frozen house because the boiler shut down?

    If you were to wire it, the low water cut off or flow switch terminals would work.

    Carl
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough"
    Albert Einstein
  • hotfoot
    hotfoot Member Posts: 19
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    That makes sense

    I see what you are saying about the switch. I won't wire it. I also made sure that all the T's are in the bullhead position. I have a majority of the downstairs zone finished. I have been using the crimp rings and testing each one with the plate given with the tool to test the crimps. Do you think that the crimps or the Pex barbed clamps are a better choice. I have used the crimp connectors before with no issues but wanted to hear if you had an opinion of one over the other.

    Thank you!
  • RobG
    RobG Member Posts: 1,850
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    Tee's

    If you are going to split the loops using tees you should put globe valves on the branches to throttle the flow to balance the flow.



    Rob

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