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New header design (what do you all think)

Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
Some of you have been following the discussion of my poorly made near-boiler piping.  I thought it would be useful to put my header design into a new thread as the old one was getting cluttered.



I included a picture of my current piping as well as the drawings.   The red pipes in the drawings are reutilized old pipe, white pipe is new stuff.  Let me know what you think!

Comments

  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,043Member
    edited January 2013
    water

    Don't like it.  The placement of the equalizer means water will be trapped in the first "level" of header.



    The entire thing needs to be repiped as a single header drained via a good sized equalizer.



    Sorry,

    Chris J
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    revision

    ok, how about this as a revision.  this is a drop header variation.  I really am trying to preserve the red pipes, it will be a really, really, really big deal to remove those parts.
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 7,356Member
    edited January 2013
    closer

    I'd swap the 90s on the boiler risers for 45s.



    You can lose a 90 by pointing the boiler header and system header elbows at each other.



    Make sure your pipe sizing is sufficient.
  • JStarJStar Posts: 2,668Member
    Header

    This is a job we did that is similar to yours.
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,043Member
    Full size tees

    Joe every time I look at that picture it bothers the hell out of me.

    I was so close to using 3x3x3 tees on my header to reducers to 2" like you did and decided it wasn't necessary as I was piping two mains in.   I kind of think I should've done it anyway especially since it wouldn't have cost much more.
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • JStarJStar Posts: 2,668Member
    Tees

    It probably only makes a negligible improvement to the steam quality. I think the reducing tees look nicer, though. Tough decision.
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    total revision

    ok, i actually looked at the arrangements of existing pipes and made some big design changes.it turns out that the drip return for the north loop is actually located directly behind the system risers, so i had to reformat everything to come out in front of the header.  i took into account all of the comments.  hopefully this one is good!
  • ChrisJChrisJ Posts: 10,043Member
    swing joints

    With 45s on there is that still considered to be proper swing joints?
    Single pipe quasi-vapor system. Typical operating pressure 0.14 - 0.43 oz. EcoSteam ES-20 Advanced Control for Residential Steam boilers. Rectorseal Steamaster water treatment
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    edited January 2013
    flattened

    i could flatten it out like this, if that would be better. 



    is it ok to have elbows in your boiler riser? theoretically this design should have pretty dry steam with two boiler risers and a drop header.
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 7,356Member
    45s

    Will still allow the boiler sections to expand and contract.
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    which is better?

    is there an advantage to the use of 45s vs 90s? will it pull less water with 45s? (more vertical surfaces).  The 45s seem a little trickier to get lined up just right.
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 7,356Member
    less friction

    In 45s than 90s.  They should line up easily enough in the real world.
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    other thoughts

    what other thoughts do you all have about my design? other possible improvements?



    how about the distance from the boiler to the first 45 elbow, does that matter?



    how about the distance of the drop to the header, is there an optimal distance? I would imagine that a bigger drop would be better as that would mean the highest possible height for the boiler riser.  can you have too high of a boiler riser?
  • RodRod Posts: 2,067
    edited January 2013
    Dropheader

    Hi- I think your latest designs look pretty good though I would modify them so they are top entry into the extended header other wise the water from the end riser drains down the second riser. I would use the standard dropheader two 90 deg. elbows to come into the tee on the top of the header. That makes it a lot easier to fit and also provides a good swing joint. I drew up a "quickie" and simple modification which I've attached below which would work fine though I like your approach better.  Risers can go up the the ceiling if you want though at least 24 inches from the Boiler waterline is minimum and 24 inches from the cabinet top is really a better minimum. Anything above that just further drys out the steam.  I would keep the addition header pipe full size (same size as the present one.  On another subject what are you using for draw program? It makes nice drawings!

    - Rod
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    ok next revision

    OK, incorporated a true drop header with 90 elbows.  what do you all think of this version?



    FYI, i use google sketchup
  • RodRod Posts: 2,067
    Dropheader

    Looks really good!  I think you might consider putting the unions between the 90 deg. elbows and the tee/elbow on the header. Done this way I think it would make it easier to handle when physically connecting the new boiler risers to the extended header pipe. Also when you needed to replace the boiler it would make it very easy to connect up a new boiler.

    Another thing I noticed is there seems to be a horizontal (flat) section in your equalizer pipe. You might want to change this and use 45 deg elbows to get more pitch.

    - Rod
  • Paul48Paul48 Posts: 4,492Member
    ?

    Are you attempting to leave the original header? If so, why? A sawzall and a good blade takes that out in a couple minutes.Look at JStars picture. He offset the risers from the boiler.
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    keeping header

    i am intentionally keeping the original header for a reason.  the original header is a single piece of welded iron pipe that include the header, the system risers and an inlet and outlet port.



    because of how it is made it would be exceptionally difficult to remove without:

    a) adding huge cost to project by replacing piping not directly part of the header

    b) all of the work will be around newly encapsulated asbestos.  i am willing to do a lot of work but anything that may potentially open up the asbestosis is a total no go with family in this house.



    i think my design mates good quality drop headers which will make nice high velocity dry steam with the existing header.



    to the question about the equalizer: the old header has an outlet port that goes into the equalizer, i will add more to the drawing tomorrow so that we can discuss changes to the equalizer piping..



    thanks all!
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Posts: 1,349Member
    Here's one I sketched up

    This is what I was thinking, but I'm not sure if I got the dimensions right. It's just a drop header with a u-turn to let the system risers be close to the boiler risers. You might be able to use the original header for that section if the risers are tall enough (and tall boiler risers are a good thing), but depending on the diameter of the pipe, you might want to replace it with something larger.



    See what I mean about your drawing being better? I wish I had a good 3D drafting program. I've been looking at Sketchup Pro.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S
    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    i think mine is similar...

    hap, i think my design is essentially the same as yours, just a mirror image.  because of other pipes in the way, i need the drop to come out away from the cabinet, rather than back over the top of it with the resulting drop header winding up in front.  if that makes sense.



    I have included a few more sketches with all of the equalizer piping included.  it is all color coded too.



    1. in red is the original header and system riser.  this is a single welded piece with no unions. it could only be removed by cutting it apart.  the green pipes above it are insulated with encapsulated asbestos.  i don't want to disturb the green or the red pieces.



    2. the green is the runs out to the two mains



    3. turquoise is the equalizer



    4. orange is the south loop drip return and yellow is the north loop drip return.



    5. the main vents are mounted "antler-style" to the 90s right at the end of the drip return before it drops down to the equalizer.



    6. the white is all the new near-boiler piping i have been working on with you guys



    questions:

    1. is my equalizer piping adequate or can it be improved?

    2. any other comments about the header design?
  • SWEISWEI Posts: 7,356Member
    pipe sizes

    Are the existing pipes you plan to use properly sized?  I don't think that's been verified yet, though I may have missed something.
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,081Member
    Trombone dropheader

    make sure it is all pitched well. I have piped boilers that way several times. You are getting a bit complicated though. 1-Make a drop header. 2- pitch it towards the front of the boiler. 3- use 2 90's and bank it towards the back of the boiler. 4- Install your take-offs to the system then drop the end and reduce for the equalizer.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    edited January 2013
    3 inches

    oops.. remeasured:



    boiler risers are 3 inch

    old header (red pipes are 4 in)

    equalizer 1.5 inch



    This is exactly min spec according to Weil McClain for my eg65
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    What purpose

    I think I would understand better if I understood the point of pitching near boiler piping. Are you just trying to pitch or so that any condensate will keep moving and will wind up in the equalizer?
  • Hap_HazzardHap_Hazzard Posts: 1,349Member
    Ding-ding-ding-ding-ding!

    You got it. See? This stuff isn't so hard, is it? Once it clicks it all makes sense.
    1983(?) Peerless G-561-W-S
    3" drop header, CG400-1090, VXT-24
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,081Member
    I just noticed

    If you click on the photo to the left of my posts near my name there is a photo of the header I described.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • Zach_2Zach_2 Posts: 41Member
    how much pitch?

    is there a certain amount of pitch? can there be too much?
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,081Member
    1" in 10 " up to

    1/4" per foot. Yes you can pitch too much, then the pipes are vertical.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • jumperjumper Posts: 1,355Member
    love this thread

    I'm pleased that there are still people who want to innovate. If there is enough headroom you can make your own steam boilers from hot water boilers. One drum to turn water into steam and another to dry the steam. More choices with hot water. And easier to maintain level in multiple boilers.
  • Charlie from wmassCharlie from wmass Posts: 4,081Member
    I would not recommend that jumper

    boiling water and trying to squeeze the 1700 to 1 volume of steam out the 2" or smaller opening on a hotwater boiler. Also it is not a simple thing to keep the water level even in hot and cold boilers that are yoked together.
    Cost is what you spend , value is what you get.

    cell # 413-841-6726
    https://heatinghelp.com/find-a-contractor/detail/charles-garrity-plumbing-and-heating
  • jumperjumper Posts: 1,355Member
    actually tried it

    Water level troubles with multiple boilers. So at end of season owner paid to disconnect near boiler piping and changed controls to flood the boilers. Tried to generate steam inside what we today call a header. Oversized. Then used a second drum to try to dry the steam. No I don't know the result.
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