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Riello/Buderus G115

ToddM
ToddM Member Posts: 13
I have a temperamental Buderus115 with a R40F5 Riello. goes into intermittent lockout-Has never run right since installed and now I "own"it...Changed nozzle to a .75 70 A from a .75 60 B. still did same thing. Tried a W nozzle-nope went back to a 75 70 A -pump at 155psi been running for two days straight now with out missing a beat. Adjusted draft -.03" breech and 0 over fire with a trace to 1 smoke. 13.8 % co2 348 stack temp (Bacharach tech 60 meter). Am expecting a call any minute. HAs brand new filter(garber) and new oil line. Any thoughts???
Mount Pleasant Plumbing & Heating Inc.

Comments

  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    pump pressure

    jack it up on those. I am finding anywhere from 175-180 lbs makes them run like a Riello should. Obviously you will have to lower your nozzle size. Try .65 60B with the higher pump pressure. From there use the recommended settings to start with and test the combustion. Good luck, they are a challenge at times
  • craig_11
    craig_11 Member Posts: 5
    Lockout, cycling rapidly

    Found a post titled Riello, dated 2-18-10 that gave Buderus' tech number, 1-800-2833787(Buderus), gave them a call and the tech said to use either a 70A or 60B nozzle @ 175# pump pressure. When I asked how this would help, he said with better atomization it produces a better (brighter) flame. In a nutshell, the cad cell isn't getting enough light so some of the posts I've seen that recommend painting the blast tube were on the right track. I've personally been on a call with G115-21 with a F3 using a .50 60W that was cycling between firing and pre-purge without going into lockout, installed my pressure gauge and slowly raised the pressure from about 150# initially until I hit 165# and the burner stayed on. Just for grins I lowered the pressure and it went back to cycling, raised the pressure and all was good. That was over two weeks ago with some cold windy weather in upstate NY and the customer says all is well. Just check your settings after the increase but if anything I've found them to be as good or better. I also stuck with the 60W.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    Give this a try.

    As Bill suggested, jack the pump up to 175 to start.  Go to a .65/60 B nozzle.



    Also, your CO2 is too high.  On that configuration you should be between 11.5 and 12.5.  Also, I would expect to see a higher over the fire draft, something in the +.03  +/-range.  Start with the turbulator somewhere around 2 and the damper around 3.5 and work it from there.



    If that burn is noisy after you get it dialed in, I have occassionally had to run a W in them to quiet them down.  But don't try that until after you have it setup.



    One last thing, check the oil solenoid, make sure the nut is tight.  I have seen that a couple of times, cause an intermittent lockout.

    How is it starting?  Hard, I bet?  If that doesn't work then Buderus tech support is the next call.



    Good Luck.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    Sorry, mis-read your post.

    On the F5, the turbulator starting point should be at 0.5 and the damper at 2.5.



    Sorry.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    edited December 2010
    Riello/Buderus G115

    And put a Lynn wet blanket refractory rug on the bottom and all your problems will go away. It is against ALL laws of physics to expect a oil flame to fire down against a cold surface and not smoke or mis-fire. Cold boilers like cold auto engines just don't run well. Never have, never will.

    I've watched the oil droplets fall out of suspension and wet-line the floor of the boiler. As the boiler and return water get hotter, the smoking slows down and stops.

    Want proof? Take the "rug" out of a W/M WGO and fire it cold. It will smoke like a pig roast. Put it back in and it will stop. Been there, done that. I beat that dead horse once. And never again.

    Someone said this recently:



    This is true.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    ditto

    on the blanket. Although "Blue" may not agree, it will only aid in start up and cold combustion
  • craig_11
    craig_11 Member Posts: 5
    Refactory

    I would never use one. Why would you want to insulate the chamber? Seems like it would make the stack temp go up. How often is the boiler stone cold, especially in winter or if you have an indirect water heater. To date the best cure for an ornery Riello is the increased pump pressure. Try it, you'll like it.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    The thing is

    there is no chamber to "insulate". Why would that raise the stack temp? Those boilers don't have to be stone cold to start and run poorly. High pump pressure, and in most cases a blanket solves it. Weil Ultra tried the same thing. Order the upgrade tube kit, and see what else comes in the box
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Recractory:

    It's when the cold water in the system, floods the bottom of the boiler is why. If the boiler is hot, and you get a call from a big, cold zone, the bottom will get very cold. "Big Blue" did a lot to try and difusse the cold water along the bottom.

    Here's a comparison. If you drink hot coffee on the run, drink it from a straw. The coffee is cooler in the bottom than it is on the top. Ask any combustion engineer. Is the flame hotter on the top or bottom.

    And from all the cold start boilers I see that the only thing that the cleaner did was open the top and brush the crud down, the bottom of the chamber was insulated with carbon soot so it was insulated. I've taken over 15# of debris out of some W/M Golds. The flame needs heat reflected back into it. The hotter the flame, the more complete the combustion.

    Hot Flame, no smoke. Complete combustion.

    Cold flame, smoke, incomplete combustion. Smoke+Soot= Inefficient.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    Not doubting you. but....

    Chris and Bill.  I am not doubting your experience.  I respect both of you.  But with the hundreds of Blues with Riellos that I have burning right now, None of them have chamber insulation in them. 



    I do take care when piping large volume systems.  I am leery of mid mass boilers (nothing new these days is traditional large mass like we used to have) into large radiator systems.  A little primary/secondary is easy enough to pipe and I don't care what the literature says, I won't put water below 130 into an oil boiler for more than a few minutes on start up.  



    The next time I have a problem I will take a look at putting a Lynn kit in the bottom to see what it does.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Riello/Buderus G115

    No one says you can't do it. I just say that if you have a problem, and I, myself, and others have had the same problem. The simple solution was the blanket. I do a lot of W/M Golds. The "rug" inside is mostly useless. On cold starts, when you get done brushing the crap down, it ends up all in the "rug". You can't suck the stuff up without sucking the rug up. CW would say that if you don't need one in a Buderus, you don't need one on a WGO. Let me tell you, they run like crap. I've found them like this. When I clean them, I take the rug out and clean down the sides and under the rug. It is astounding, all the crap under there. I put a Lynn "wet blanket" cut to cover the bottom and just up the sides. I get very good results doing this. And when I clean it again, I just grab the whole thing and pull it out for cleaning. It goes right back.

    I will bet that unless YOU clean those Buderus's, the bottom is covered with hard soot or that cementious material that comes from cold start.

    When I started out, back a while ago, we installed a lot of Smith-Mills 2000 and 2500 series oil boilers. They all had chambers. They finally eliminated those and came out with what they called a "Low Set". The base was just a bunch of 2" high lightweight channel iron. They came with a couple of bags of refractory pellets that you poured into the bottom. It went about 2" high on the legs. They gave you a big fiber block for a target for the burner to blow at. They had a special burner mount that replaced the explosion door and the burner fired through it. It worked like a charm. Later, we/I had boilers where the chambers went South. Smith then sold you the plate for the burner, you filled the old chamber with sand (after you knocked the old one down) and fired it like a low-set. Worked like a charm.

    The first Buderus I ever did would not stop smoking when it was cold. Tech support and a whole tribe of nozzles and settings couldn't put this thing right. I remembered my experience with the HB Smith Low Sets. I put a refractory blanket in and,,,, Instant success. When Tech support leaves you to your own devices, you either solve it on your own or you walk away and let someone else figure it out. I'm someone else.

    If your way, with a lot of work, works. And my way with no extra work, works, why would you want to fight success? I know how a burner is supposed to run. I know what they are capable of doing. If they aren't doing it in a certain situation, I have to use my experience to solve the problem. I hear guys talking about problems. I ask them about their problems. Often, they have no idea of a way to solve it. I am always happy to offer suggestions if I am asked. If it works, that's how I learn. 
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    some not all

    have had problems like this. I read your posts meplumber and know that you are no slouch either my friend, and thanks. Like anything else, no 2 are alike. 
  • Ironman
    Ironman Member Posts: 6,857
    Pump Pressure and Blast Tube

    As has been already stated: Increase your pump pressure, but do not down fire the boiler. You can up fire a Buderus, but not down fire it. You didn't state what size this boiler is, but a .75 nozzle is used on a 4 section. However, it should be 60deg whether A or B.

    Also, make sure the blast tube is inserted as far as possible; this will reflect more heat back toward the burner for better combustion.
    Bob Boan
    You can choose to do what you want, but you cannot choose the consequences.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    No offense intended.

    I didn't mean any offense guys.  Just that I hadn't experienced the same problems.



    I do personally clean a lot of them, although I must admit, not as many as I once did.  I have seen the crumbles, but never in large quantity.  I seem to find more crumbles in the bottoms of the Vitolas than in the G series.  As for the W/M Gold's, I agree that a blanket is necessary, but I think that the casting design is considerably different as far as the GOC's are concerned.  I am not a rocket scientist, just a lowly basement dweller that smells like fuel oil for 10 months out of the year.



    I appreciate all that I have learned from you both.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    None taken Meplumber

    Happy New Year
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Crumbles:

    Crumbles. I like that.

    When the W/M WGO boilers came out, they were very specific about certain burners being used in some models of the WGO's. It had to do with flame impingement on the Cast Iron. They were very emphatic that on one model, the only model they approved was their QB-300 because of flame impingement on the sides of the chamber area. I didn't use my burner of choice. Some of us know about QB burners. I had one of these boilers where the burner was shot and I needed to replace it. I replaced it with an EZ-66. It runs better than the QB ever did. But another customer who has three of that model and QB-300's, I have noticed serious flame impingement on the sides. I covered the bad spots with a refractory blanket. Maybe it's because the "crumbles" reflect the flame and heat to the sides.

    Burner flames don't belong hitting the cast iron. That's what refractory is for.

    Stinkin' crumbles.
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    I remember the QB's.

    No different than those smaller btu W/M 68's where the flame was bouncing off the back wall all the time.  Used to have to service those twice a year.  New chamber kit every other winter.  I see your point.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    W/M 68's

    I never had that problem with warm starts and I always used EZ-1's. I don't think I ever had one burn out. I saw some nasty ones on cold start ones when they would get plugged up with the black and grey "crumbles". I like that. "Crumbles". How appropriate.
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    W/M-68's

    You knew you were going to have a problem is when after letting it run for a while, you switched it off and as the chamber cooled, there was a big bright yellow spot in the middle of the back target wall. I installed few 368's because of that. The smallest I liked to do was a 468. They make a WGO-3 that is really the same size as the 468. I use those. They make a WGO-2. I would never use one for your above reason.

    But at my late age, I'm starting to worry less and less about it. I probably won't be around when this stuff all blows up in our faces. Ill be dead. I'm retiring when I'm dead.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    Thank God

    The Gold series replaced the 68 series which replaced the 66 series. Besides the Federal, Mt Harley, Continental, Edwards, or Burnhan Fiesta boilers, I hated them
  • meplumber
    meplumber Member Posts: 678
    I was a Smith Man.

    Did Smith's for a while loved them.  Simplicity at its best.  Finicky for draft, but tanks none the less.



    The green movement up here has pushed me to the more complicated stuff.  Some nights while I am banging my head against the side of the van, I long for the good old days.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    You can add to them

    Smith is still a good Boiler, just got to add ODR and whatever else floats someone's boat. I wouldn't bang your head too much, aint worth the lumps
  • ToddM
    ToddM Member Posts: 13
    Thanks for all the help guys

    The burner is running and has been for almost 10 straight days!!! I do want to go back and change the pump pressure and downsize the nozzle for the proper firing rate etc ....
    Mount Pleasant Plumbing & Heating Inc.
  • billtwocase
    billtwocase Member Posts: 2,385
    We try Todd

    Maybe it's so damn cold there that it hasn't shut off yet, so start up no longer a problem
  • ToddM
    ToddM Member Posts: 13
    Good Point

    Been doing this for 25+/- years and everyonce in a while you get a curve ball.....
    Mount Pleasant Plumbing & Heating Inc.
  • nokios
    nokios Member Posts: 1
    burderus / riello g115-28

    Hey guys, I was reading this thread, looking for insight on my buderus oil furnace. It burned earliervin the week but is now not running. After help from a friend who used to service furnaces, I cleaned the chamber of what appeared to be burnt fiberglass insulation. I haven't disposed of it, but the bottom chamber is bare.



    I've verified that the fuel is pumping and have bled the line. I even cleaned the nozzle with some oops and a q tip.



    Before I did this, the unit would start when I pressed the button, run for a bit with periodic (5-10s) thumps, during which the gauge on thecoilf filtervwould jump from none to 3 then drop back down.



    Now, it runs for about 5 to 10s after pressing the button, after which the fuel gauge slowly rises to about 5 then the whole thing shuts off.



    Any suggestions? Did I do something I should not have? I know this is an old thread, so I'm hoping someone sees this... I appreciate any help in advance!
  • earl burnermann
    earl burnermann Member Posts: 126
    Not sure about installing blanket

    Installed a biasi boiler in my home years ago. It came with a napkin size piece of blanket material. No matter what I did, I could not get the efficiency over 80%. A few years later I was cleaning a customer's biasi and noticed their boiler was missing the blanket. This boiler had no problem reaching over 85% and absolutely no sooting. Came home removed the piece of blanket and raised the SSE. Absolutely no sign of soot since I did this too. I'm wondering what it's going to look like inside this year after running on uls fuel starting last heating season
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
  • earl burnermann
    earl burnermann Member Posts: 126
    Refractory debate

    Think it depends on the boiler and burner. Just installed a blanket in a five section liberty slant fin/Beckett af and it made a word of difference.
    If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy!
  • icesailor
    icesailor Member Posts: 7,265
    Cleaning Nozzles:

    Cleaning nozzles is like using condoms over. Never a good idea. They really can't be effectively cleaned. If the nozzle is a beaded strainer, and you have a canister type filter, the strainer is more than likely plugged. If it is a really odd nozzle that worked before, and you need to get it running, take a brand new similar nozzle of the same brand and swap the strainer from the new nozzle. If it starts and runs, you have a plugged strainer. If you pull the nozzle/electrode assembly out of the burner and hold it with the nozzle side UP, oil should freely and rapidly run out the bottom. If it doesn't, the strainer is dirty. When you loosen the nozzle slightly and unscrew the nozzle (while holding the nozzle end upright) oil will run out freely.

    Whatever you do, stick with the same nozzle that was in there. Don't start experimenting with nozzles because you don't have the correct one. If the nozzle in there worked last year, and isn't working now, before you make any life altering changes, change the strainer first. Then you KNOW that it was the place to start.

    Just advice.
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