Social engineering or Common Sense

singh

Rudy had a motivated nypd and nyfd.
In New Orleans the police had also lost their buildings and homes.
There was a report of a group of police working out of a supermarket eating food off the shelves,becoming "looters" themselves.Some had quit. There is a big difference between survival and looting.If your walking around in waist deep water with a TV on your head your a criminal, if your looking for clean drinking water and some dry food goods your not.
I like Rudy, I voted for him, but if the entire island of manhattan was submerge in 8' of water Rudy would have been in a world of hurt. BTW there was looting after 9/11.
What was in place 4 years ago is not today,FEMA was its own entity, today we have Homeland security,and running the show is a good school buddy of the president with no experience.Now Rudy would have been a good choice to head that department.
Unfortunately, this was a good test of our new system.

Steve Ebels_3

Social engineering or Common Sense

This'll probably start another free for all here on the Wall and maybe it's grotesque even to speak it right now, but this thought has been bugging me since Monday.

Here's the facts.

1.The City of New Orleans is below the water line of the surrounding areas.

2. Various agencies, engineering types, government officials etc., have been warning for years that a catastrophe such as this was not only possible but likely.

3. Probably 80% of the city is destroyed, ruined, damaged or unusable and will have to be torn down and rebuilt. How good can a building be after it has been in standing water for 2-3 months?

4. The state of Louisiana is not going to pay for the reconstruction. Very simply, they can't. The cost of rebuilding would be at least 30 times the annual GDP of the whole state.

5. You and I are going to pay to reconstruct New Orleans through higher taxes and insurance rates. That my friends is a fact. The 10.5 Billion plus the insured losses is not just printed out of thin air. $10.5 billion is around $35 for every man woman and child in the whole country. Now add the insured losses of a minimum of $25B and you have another $83 or so for all of us. Personally, I think the total will top $80B. Are you willing to subsidize something that in all likelyhood will re-occur?


Now before you get all wrathy with me please understand that my heart and prayers are going out to those people and the check has already been placed in the mail. Their suffering at this point is unbelieveable.

With all that being said let me ask a question. I'm sure I'm not the only person thinking this thought. Wouldn't it make much more sense to rebuild the city somewhere else? Or, would it not make more sense to bulldoze what's left, raise the elevation of the city 20 feet or whatever and build at a sane elevation? I don't care how high and strong they build the levees and dams, at some point they will fail and the same thing will happen again. Who knows, a Cat 4 or 5 with a little different wind angle could wipe it out a day after they are done rebuilding.

I know this sounds far out but I don't think it makes a lot of sense to rebuild 15% of Florida every year. I don't have a lot of sympathy for people building on the cliffs of Malibu and watching their homes slide into the Pacific when they know the risks going in. Same goes for those who choose to live on the San Andreas Fault and I have relation there. Same will hold true when there's not enough water in Arizona to sustain the population. There are safe, sane, fiscally responsible places to live and there are places that are marginal for human habitation. To put it another way, what is right about me asking you to help bear the cost of making an area that I like but you will never enjoy, "user friendly" for me.

IMHO, if a person makes a choice that they know bears some risk they should bear the responsibility for that decision.

Now, don't write me off as some deranged Nazi type who is an advocate for a "chosen race" mentality. I'm not. I am however reaching the conclusion that our nation cannot continue to subsidize the needs and wishes of people who choose to live in dangerous areas.

Save the hate mail, those of you who know me know that I am pretty tender hearted. On the other hand those of you who know me also know that I like things that make sense. I just can't resist playing devil's advocate on this question. It'll give you a good topic for debate and conversation over a few beers this weekend.

Enjoy

Maine Ken

I could not have expressed it better.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Jason_15

I agree

Steve I must say I agree 100% with what you said. I am also a levelheaded person, and feel terrible for the loss being suffered down there. I believe you are from Michigan? I am your neighbor in Wisconsin. While we live in a much safer area, we chose this knowing that we would have higher expenses for heating fuel, rusting cars, etc. Wis. is one of the highest taxed states also- heck we all have pro's and cons where we live. I love the upper midwest. My check to the red cross has also been sent, but I am not thrilled at the thought of paying to rebuild N.O. when it is literally only a matter of time before it happens again.

bob young

the only ones who should live below the water are FISH.

tls_9

Steve

I know where you’re coming from. I am honestly not sure what my own final stance on this would be. On one hand New Orleans has been there many many years, surviving many potential catastrophes, Is it right to refuse to rebuild it because the finally lost to one?

If we (and as you say, it will be "we") don’t, then we should stop rebuilding after the Mississippi floods, stop rebuilding in tornado ally and all along the hurricane coast. Stop digging out buffalo in the winter. Just to add to your list.

On the other hand. All the money spent will be spent right here in the good old USA. Think of the jobs that rebuilding would create. Those people are sure going to need them, but the influence of that money being spent will stretch far and wide.

Yes, I realize that bad influence will come along with the good. Higher lumber prices etc. But hey, this countries economy is about to collapse as it is, how long before $4 - $5 gas brings us to our knees. I am no economics major but we are on the fast train and the bridge is out.

My heart goes out to all in 'Orleans and other affected areas. I don’t feel right talking about their suffering in terms of economics. May God watch over them.

tom

DanHolohan

Once again . . .

Must reading for all Americans: Rising Tide

We are paying a long-overdue bill right now.

rb_6

It's the modern day Atlantis unfolding before the eyes...

Bob Sweet

These are tough times

no matter which way you look or which side of the isle you sit on.

I really wish this disaster would not sink into the political abiss, unfortunately it appears it has.

These are soul searching times for all of us, especially those directly affected by this natural disaster. I hope their needs are met quickly, and their able to find hope in all that is.

Steve Ebels_3

Good points tls

All of 'em are good points. I have to admit that I really considered posting that after I wrote it. It seemed callous and indifferent in light of the chaos and suffering going on there as we speak. But this ole' world is a pretty hard place sometimes and hard calls have to be made. Hard calls that don't lead to congeneality awards or re-election.

As far a New Orleans having been there a lot of years, that is very true. I believe it's 300 or better if I'm not mistaken. The element that has changed though is that the geography of the region has changed since NO was founded and located where it is. The river delta kept moving and building up leaving the city in it's present undesireable state.

Also the differnce in the other things you mentioned, such as tornado's is this. A tornado is a random occurence. You can't predict where it will happen. Only that it will. In the case of New Orleans, everyone who studied the problem knew it would someday happen, it was only a matter of time.

I have some friends who own four rental properties on Holden Beach, which is an island just across the InterCostal Waterway in North Carolina. each of those properties has a value of probably 15-20 times my home. Yet, they pay less in taxes on them than I do for my humble abode here in Michigan. They also pay less for house insurance than I do, although their rate has come up in recent years. When Hurricane Hugo came through there it wiped two of them clean off the island. All they found was the refrigerator from one. Federal insurance (your and my tax dollars) paid to rebuild them both. Why is that the right thing to do and what are we going to do when half of LA or San Fransico slides underneath the Pacific? These location/event circumstances are a known fact waiting to happen.

PS: I am not saying that we just walk away and not rebuild that great city, only that we as a nation, should examine the where and how of the rebuilding. I also feel that the people who choose to live in those places are the ones who should "pay the freight".

Paul Pollets

What about the...

Dutch? The Netherlands is below sea level.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

THP_6

Stevie save me some ink.

Steve I am glad I did not have to work with you this week.
I had enough of my own before school problems.
What is a real shame is that we have spent over 100 billion
over east of the Atlantic with no hope of ever getting a return on it. In one of are own states we can't even rescue are own people. We here the governing authority tell use that the water is to big of an obstacle to deal with. Give me a break. I better stop here before I get P.O.

bob young

dutch comparison

THE Netherlands also have triple sea walls. and probably would not riot & loot.

singh

Also read.

The Geography of Nowhere by James Howard Kunstler

Firedragon_4

Very true Dan, started

reading it yesterday, amazing, and now can't put it down. Thanks, I think? LOL!

Save the downtown and the French Quarter and re-build people's HOMES on high ground, JMO!

It has been politics that has caused this problem to fester all along, time to make it right and it has to be so we can save the second busiest port in the US. If not, the bill hasn't started to be added up.

Steve Ebels_3

The North Sea

Being of 100% Dutch blood meself, I have to admit that I pondered that one too. The North Sea has some bad storms but they aren't Category 4 or 5 with a thirty foot surge. I think that would be the major difference Paul.

singh

Where is Haliburton?
Don't those guys specialize in rebuilding on a large scale.
After all the billion dollar no-bid contracts we given them, they could at least send some equipment and supplies to the gulf states,not the gulf countries.
oh, wait, what was I thinking, there no money in helping out your own..
My brother just e-mailed me from Iraq, he's with the 3 I.D
Just informed me he is ok, Burger King and Taco Bell just opened on base and Starbucks will soon, he has cable in his double wide trailer and internet. We are in for the long haul over there, we got to keep troop moral up somehow.And someone is enjoying big profits setting up fast food shops in a war zone.
Meanwhile I see Americans wondering when and where next meal will come,and why help is taking so long.
It's your tax dollars.
I won't say anymore but that I'm disgusted and disapointed.

I hope all here has a good weekend,remember this holiday is for us,the working class American.

Steve Ebels_3

Crunch these numbers

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168315,00.html

GaryDidier

Rebuilding?

I totaly agree with THP on this issue.We will spend the better part of 250 BILLION in Iraq and when we finally walk away it will slide into civil war, ( It is already happening ). In this light I think it is our responsibility to rebuild the storm damage and try to set things right either by making the city higher or making the levys totaly storm proof. 50 or 60 billion is chump change compared to the middle east fiasco and it wont cost the lives of thousands of our military to do it. By spending this money here it would creat thousands of good jobs and it would stay in the old USA. It would also help to keep the economy on track and bring energy levels back to realistic prices.

My prayers go out to all those affected by Katrina and my check is in the mail to the RED CROSS.

Gary from Granville

P.S. Throw a blizzard at me any day, That I can handle!!!

hr

Shock and Awe

let the voters decide where billions should be spend.

I'm in shock and awe at the inability of our agencies to respond even with plenty of notice.

I hope THIS is a wake up call for those in power.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steve Ebels_3

Same opinion Hot Rod

But I have to admit, the scope of this event is beyond projection or planning. I just downloaded a file of pics from NOAA that they took after the storm. It's a huge file that maps just the NorthEast quarter of New Orleans. There are tens of thousands of houses and other buildings that are isolated by water. It wouldn't matter if they had every helicopter in the military inventory stationed nearby and ready to go including the support structure needed to operate them. It would be impossible to get to and check each one of those places in ANY kind of a timely fashion. If they would have had 100,000 personnel standing by with the logistical support required, it would STILL be impossible to get to all the places shown there within a week let alone 2-3 days.

After looking at the 60 pictures in that file, I don't know. This is truly a catastrophe of Biblical magnitude. The shear size of the affected area and the numbers involved defy the term "planning". You can't plan for something like this.

bob_50

Thomas Jefferson

It's Jefferson's fault, bad investment. Give it back to the French. Who in their right mind would buy a city below sea level in a swamp. The French should have disclosed occasional flooding in the contract. bob

DanHolohan

I'll suggest it again.

Please read Rising Tide.

Educate yourself.

hr

I disagree, Steve

any planning and response is better than none. Basic needs like water and food packets should be able to get air-lifted to this area within hours. Not four days!

Yes it's an overwhelming disaster but not un-doable for this great country. Move the politicians aside and let the hardworking citizens of this country work it out.

It's amazing to see how much has already beed done by the folks in my area. Families have been taken in and jobs provides, dozens of semi loads of supplies sent. Every radio and TV station have fundraisers and food donation drives going on today. That's a great feeling.

The entire infrastructure of this country needs repair and upgrading. Roads, bridges, power grid, you name it. It's about time we invest in our own country. The whole world is watching.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

tls_9

Just

Ordered a used copy through Amazon. Looks like good reading.

tom

Brian (Tankless)

While I partly agree with you

on some things, Steve.

One needs to look at this, and other situations with a "fly's eye" (try to see all aspects).

Most area's, like Brownsville TX, Galveston, Houston, Port Arthur/Beaumont, Cameron LA (remember Audrey), Lake Charles & Sulphur LA, Intracoastal City, Lafayette, Morgan City, Venice, Houma, Grand Isle, Baton Rouge, New Orleans, and literally hundreds of smaller communities are at, below, or just a few feet above sea-level.

I moved almost 60 miles inland, but I'm still just six feet above sea-level?

My point is; we can't all move just because a hurricane MIGHT come our way.

All the communities listed above, are, to a HUGE extent responsible for getting the supply of oil, gas, petro-chemical products, plastics, acids, imports, electricity, rice, soy, corn, just to name a few commodities, to the entire rest of the US.

We have about ten (10) 36" & 48" pipelines sending oil, gas, and gasoline (including heating oil & jet fuel) through our back yards to almost everywhere. (I forgot shrimp & crawfish).

Average per capita wages along the Gulf coast, including south Texas, LA, MS, and AL, are the LOWEST in the country, period.

The 8-10 million folk down here working right on the coast, to make all this happen, to help keep the country going, CANNOT move 50 miles inland, or just "go somewhere else".

I love the mountains, the streams, the snow and the clean air of the north, but this is where my daughter lives, and this where my type of work is. Those are the exact same reasons folk will not leave New Orleans. It's where they BELONG.

I remember thinking, when I saw the 100,000's of people dying of thirst & hunger in Ethiopia and Kenya etc', "why don't those fools just get out of there". Now I know why, it is who they are, it's where they belong.

The origins of humanity are found in Kenya. Can you imagine where the human race would be if everyone who suffered hardship, just got up & left? We'd just be a bunch of nomad losers.

Considering we all came from tough central African stock originally, I'd say we owe them a debt of gratitude.

I know that got a little off-course, but it fits.

I worked with a Nigerian Doctor in Doha, Qatar. I remember him saying "I can't imagine, for the life of me, why anyone would deliberately live in a place where snow plows were needed just so people could get to work".

Gotta give up the puter to Autumn, she's got to tend to her "neopet" on the web.

Take care, Steve. I hope to meet you one day.

Remember "A fly's eye".

Brian.

Steve Ebels_3

I too am mystified

There is no reason that I can see for the lack of response to the situation at the superdome. You'd think that at the very least pallets of water and MRE's could have been dropped by copter if they couldn't drive there. A couple hundred Porta-John's would have brought smiles to the faces of those poor folks too.

The situation I had in mind as far as planning is concerned was all those people trapped in houses that are accessible only by boat or chopper. You can't go "door to door" with a helicopter and I doubt that you could find 200 functional boats in the whole area to conduct search and rescue missions to 70,000 (my guess) homes.

BTW a local trucking firm parked two of their semi's in a local Wal Mart lot and said they would haul donated whatever down South at no charge as soon as they were full. That was this morning at 9 AM. Both of the trucks just left about 8 this evening full of water, canned goods, pillows, blankets, dry groceries, clothes, etc. All of these items were donated by private citizens. No corporate stuff at all. It will take thousands of loads just like that to git 'r done.

Here's a good read.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9178815/site/newsweek/

hr

It's water under the bridge

at this point. I'll focus my energy on the work to be done, not the blame game. Politicians are already hard at work on that. Like a pack of wolves.

I say put Giuliani in! He seems a lot more in tune with the every day man, and knows how to empathize with average folks and get a job done.

hot rod

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

DanHolohan

However,

few folks, outside of New Yorkers, remember how Rudy was on September 10th.

bob young

man for the job

but on the up side Rudy is a no nonsense guy & would absolutely not let any looters or parade guys like shartan hinder the operation. rudy gets my vote.

Robert O'Connor_11

apples to oranges

Rudy was dealing with 1 square mile.....

All the best

Robert

ME

Unknown

Island of Manhatten?

Your sense of scale is a bit off. This hurricane, and the area in a state of emergency, is LARGER than the United Kingdom, in Europe.

This is bigger than anyone could "pre-stage". Save some of your critism unless you actually know of someone holding back on the aid. Every bit of it is being absorbed, and more is needed, in my view.

Noel

Firedragon_4

Right on Noel,

pay attention gents, the area affected is the size of the State of Kansas, 90,000 square miles.

New Orleans is getting most of the attention and that's due to a levee break that was many years coming. The wind damage was minimal, in fact they would not have made the news if the levees held, FACT!

singh

You missed the point.
Of course the area damaged was huge,
I was comparing population values.
NYC 8 million, New Orleans 460,000.
It would be near impossible to evacuate all of NYC and L.I. in two days.
Hurricanes have reached NY,plus it's near a fault line.

I also disagree that this could not have been forseen,it happened in the past,and probably will in the future(hopefully not again in my lifetime). Aid took three days to arrive, what better proof.I'm curious how the media got there before the N.G.

We have officials that plan for the worst case senario,it is their job, we look to government to provide security,law and order,without that, democracy breaks down, IMHO.

Oh well , your probably right ,I should save my criticism,what right or good does it do when a citizen questions his government actions or lack of.

Firedragon_4

On one thing I think

we agree; the Homeland Security Agency is a joke, a very poor tasteless one, followed right up by FEMA, right?

But, keep in mind that before this became a US Government problem it was a city and state problem with the levees.

singh

True.
Except that the city and state requested additional funds to shore up levees, and feds scaled back.

Al Corelli

Gentlemen,

I will not point fingers.

The levees breaking is a STATE problem. The chain of command has to come from the state to the feds. The feds need to be asked for help. If the help was not asked for in time, then it takes longer to get there. Please do not blame the feds, or the president for the mishandling of requests for help that did not exist, or came late. The states are their own "entities". The feds can only jump in when ASKED. This is not a partisan issue, it is how the country operates.

The surrounding area should not be rebuilt until a modern lavee system is in place. Not just repairing the simple system from a hundred years or so.

We cannot fault people for living in areas that may seem "unfit" for us. As someone stated earlier about the Nigerian doctor from Qatar, about his not comprehending the reason why anyone would live in an area where snowplows were needed to get to work. If the money is good for you, your family is close by, and you are happy with the consequences, you then exist where you are.

But, the Army Corps of Engineers has stated, as long as 35 years ago, that the levee system in that area was unfit and neede repair/replacement. So who is to blame? Politicians? The city infrastructure people (whomever) knew about this inadequacy for years. Who brushed the reports under the rug? Well, now the rug has been thrown out with the flood water and there will probably be no proof available, exept in Corp of Engineer files.

Jeff Lawrence_24

Quote

This is from another web site.

"N.O. will be a model city in 10 years. Rebuilt from the ground up with the latest in building technology, energy efficiency, etc. This will be a developers nightmare and dream. Imagine a housing development for 100,000 homes and what goes into it."

There will always be questions and finger pointing about Katrina. We need to learn from the past so the problems won't happen in the future.


To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

singh

How many times can you ask?

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313

Another thought: The government (local,state and federal)now has a right to take my property for the good of the public.But they won't help properly protect that property from disasters for the good of the public??

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Write Your Congressmen

Ask for an honest and objective study of flood control on the Lower Mississippi before a single penny of your federal tax dollars are spent to rebuild.

Such study should include cost-benefit analysis and a reasonable projection of the time required to complete. The possibility of another hurricane during the reconstruction should also be factored into the cost-benefit equation. The federal government has teams of actuaries who actually enjoy doing this sort of thing...

John Van Hoesen

Plate Tectonics...

Uh... Steve, LA and SF are never going to slide into the Ocean, eventually they will be subducted under Alaska, but they will NEVER slide into the ocean... I hate the fact that the media, tv, and movies keep propagating that awful scientific myth.. oye!