Enough Already

Mark Hunt

> and certainly appreciate it, we all like to talk <BR>
> shop. I guess my point was I watch many of the <BR>
> threads here where a homeowner or contractor asks <BR>
> a questions and it turns into a bar fight as to <BR>
> which peice of equipment is superior and why. The <BR>
> explanations seem to turn into a " pissin match " <BR>
> over technical superiority, the original poster <BR>
> seems to get left in the dust. <BR>
<BR>


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Cunner_2

Bad Effect

I'm a long time lurker and first time poster to the wall, I've been out on my own doing heating now for 2-3yrs and have learned a tremendous amount from this site, but recently I think it is having a bad effect on the average homeowner and average contractor. I recently talked to a homeowner about an upgrade to their old system and I was prepared to quote my first Mod/Con, I suggested they come here to get some unsolicited opinions on some of the latest equipment and I mentioned both Viessmann & Buderus, I got an unexpected response, the homeowner said under no circumstance did they want a Viessmann or Buderus, I was puzzled and asked why, they said that after reading many of the post on this site that they seemed to have a lot of controversy around them and seemed very complicated. They asked if any of the companies like Weil or Burnham made units like this that were less confusing. I have to agree that much of the control talk on those two units intimidates the heck out of me.

I just wanted throw in a simple man's perspective, while many seem to be trying to " one up " one another on which Euro boiler technically out performs the other, I think it is sending many of the people who come here looking for a little info running as fast as they can away from this equipment. Honestly it makes me feel like I can't handle the equipment and I will certainly start off with one of the other companies.

Not trying to offend anyone, just hoping it may give perspective.

Thanks

Dave_4

shop talk

this is good old fashion shop talk. be happy Dan can't serve beer here.

Cunner_2

I understand that

> this is good old fashion shop talk. be happy Dan

> can't serve beer here.

john@TR

It is what it is. I wouldn't change a thing.

Cunner_2

I understand that

and certainly appreciate it, we all like to talk shop. I guess my point was I watch many of the threads here where a homeowner or contractor asks a questions and it turns into a bar fight as to which peice of equipment is superior and why. The explanations seem to turn into a " pissin match " over technical superiority, the original poster seems to get left in the dust.

Brad White_159

Filter

I agree that this is shop-talk. We get into a neat discussion, maybe too much detail for some, not enough for others.

If a homeowner checks in as many do and come away with "controversy" and an idea not to buy a product, then by all means they should pick a product they are comfortable with. One that won't argue back.

Personally I think if a HO comes here with a serious question, to lurk or even -bless her, Susan in Chicagoland- write a novel, all are well-served.

If they come upon a family fight, yes it is like watching a car wreck. If it makes them shy away from the products discussed yet they do not read the postings enough to see what is really being discussed, I would not want them to have such a boiler. It might confuse them.

Most I think see what it is. They will make intelligent choices because that is what they do. Those that shy away for reasons of controversy? Respectfully, I think that they cannot be helped.

My $0.02

Brad

Ted_9

10 to 1

Great point, but I think for the one that gets confused, ten see the light. It all works out.

Massachusetts

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Mark Hunt

Jeffrey

> and certainly appreciate it, we all like to talk

> shop. I guess my point was I watch many of the

> threads here where a homeowner or contractor asks

> a questions and it turns into a bar fight as to

> which peice of equipment is superior and why. The

> explanations seem to turn into a " pissin match "

> over technical superiority, the original poster

> seems to get left in the dust.





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S Ebels

I'll say this

Nearly all of the brands of M/C boilers that I have installed come with basic out of the box capabilities. All the American brands have TT connections at some point or another and I think the Euro products do too. I know the Vitodens has a connections for an input not generated by the control itself.

Point is that all of the M/C boilers can be run as simply as you please. Some of them however, have the capability to do vastly more than that, but only if YOU choose to use it that way. There is nothing to fear, only new stuff to learn and understand. They can be as simple or as complex as you want.

Mark Hunt

Excellent


I see your point and I tried a similar thread the other day.

Never gonna' happen. The "hydronics" industry is NEVER going to promote itself. It is going to continue to compete with itself. Figure this. Who are the "famous" furnace manufactueres in the USA? List them.

Who are the "famous" boiler manufacturers in the USA? List them.

Here's my lists.

FHA:

Carrier, Lennox, Trane, York

HW/Steam

Weil-Mclain, Burnham, Utica, Peerless, Smith, LAARS, Slant/Fin, Buderus, Viessmann, Lochinvar (Not in any order here)

What.......like 96% of new homes built in America are FHA? FHA has 4 major manufacturers. 4% of the new homes in America have hydronic systems and we have a gazillion boiler companies fighting for that market share! Sadly, it's NOT about hydronics, it is about market share. Now tack on to all of this the multitude of different components that you have to add to a hydronic system. Pumps, air seperators, zone valves, expansion tanks, LWCO's, baseboard, "radiant" tubing, controls AND control strategies, indirects...........etc.........

The tree gets lost in the forest.

The "tree" is the customer you are talking to AT THIS MOMENT. They are UNIQUE to EVERY other customer you have EVER spoken to or ever will speak to.(If anyone does not believe that, go flip burgers somewhere)

On the gas side Jeff I can honestly tell you that I have sold only one atmospheric boiler in 10 years. Sold it the day after I got back from ISH Chicago. EVERY other boiler was mod/con.

Look at the posts Jeff. Go back and count how many are heating contractors as opposed to ...............well.......not heating contractors.

Sell your first mod/con. I do not care which it is. While the pointy heads argue over the things that pointy heads argue over, you just saved your customer a TON of money in heating bills!! And since many of the "enlightened" are "environmentally aware", YOU just saved the Earth!!

As for the rest of the schmuckos.............well.......they have their own thread. It was started JUST for them by a fake person with a fake name. Like moths to a candle.

What was the name of Pavlov's dog?

Mark H





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Constantin

Hmmm...

In the case of either Burnham or Viessmann, I believe that seeing is believing. Once the homeowner has the chance to touch and play with the settings on either boiler and understands how easy they are to set up, then a lot of that fear would melt away. Trouble is, where do you find such a boiler to "play" with?

Some homeowners agree to be references and they are your best bet for convincing those who sit on any kind of fence why they ought to hire your outfit and spend the extra bucks to go with a mod-con boiler.

Furthermore, to really benefit from any mod-con, they will need to be programmed: Outdoor reset curves, setbacks, etc. The good news to the customer is that this programming only has to happen once and that the settings are stored in non-volatile memory. In other words, if the contractor did his/her homework, the boiler controls don't have to be touched again until his/her next visit for maintenance.

I think the biggest issue here with homeowners is that many feel too intimidated to ask the questions they have in the first place... too many lurkers... plus, using the search function can bring up some pretty esoteric discussions. But in my mind, the only way to go is to ask, and better yet, experience different heating systems and then make the choice.

Bob Sweet

Could not agree more

If you really look at it, the list is quite short with regards to who actually gets involved in the comparison game.

Unfortunately, blood is always drawn when it comes to which one is the best.


Mark hit it right on the nose. The reasons to use a mod/con FAR outway the reasons NOT to use one. Put your first mod/con in and my guess is you will never go back. They are fun as heck to watch run.

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Jeff Lawrence_25

Name?

Zolotisty

[Deleted User]

Jeff...

I would not suggest that you send your customers to The Wall. I don't. I come to the Wall myself to learn, and educate, to the best of my knowledge. But the decision for what product I want to deal in sets SQUARELY upon my shoulders, not the customers. I'm the one that will have to perform the work on the system after the fact.

As far as features are concerned, I can count the number of customers (geeks if you will, nice ones, but still, self proclaimed techno geeks) on one hand that really have a hand in that part of the decision making process. They WANT those extra control features, and by golly, they're driving the bus. But for the most part, control settings are my department, and I set it and they forget it.

Trust me, Dan does not need any additional people coming to heatinghelp.com. His site is already more popular than the most active porno site on the web.

YOU come to the wall, YOU educate YOURSELF so that YOU can go back to the consumer with a product that YOU feel good (comfortable) with. I'd suggest you not tie yourself down to one product. We carry 5 differnt brands of ModCOn boilers, each with their own different nuances, capability and applicability.

By all means, jump into the mod cons with both feet. You will not regret doing so. Neither will your customer base. Just be sure to read and follow the installation isntructions to the T. It's not your grandpas Buick any more.


BTW, Welcome to The Wall. You might as well file for divorce papers now. That's the last your wife will see of you...:-) She has now officially joined the ranks of being a Wall Widow ;-)

ME

ALH_4

The Wall

Some homeowners love the information, collective experience and knowledge this site offers. Others just want a heating system that provides comfort and uses as little fuel as possible. Bulleted comparisons of equipment will not be found here.

I come here to exercise my mind with people with whom I share an interest. The beauty of The Wall is that it requires no login or password and anyone wanting to skim the latest topics can do just that. In my opinion, the RPA bulletin board is hard to read and there are too many hoops to jump through.

I will admit some of the longer posts make me glaze over. When a thread gets much past 50 posts, I sometimes lose track of who said what. I try to keep my posts short and to the point and, above all, not get personal.

I have no way of knowing the true extent, but every once in a while I get a glimpse of the quantity and diversity of regular Wall readers who may rarely or never post on The Wall. The world is watching. I am relatively new here having only been around a few years, but I know there have been disagreements since the beginning. They are very few and far between for a bulletin board as open as this.

-Andrew

GW

it's like the little cartoon guy peeing

on the Ford or Chevy logo.

I get a chuckle out of how many trades guys act like the peeing cartoon guy and beat their chest going on and on about which product is best. It cracks me up!

I too once sent a prospective customer to the wall once and probably will never do it again. It was a situation where the lady was considering spending triple to replace her steam with hw rads, euro system bla bla. Some wallies commented that the new system wouldn't be that much more efficient than a new euro system. I practically gagged when I read the comments.

Some heating guys on milk; some are on meat and potatoes. Those of us on milk will despise the nitty gritty techie stuff. Too boring I guess?

Any heating guy catering his posts to the ho is a little frail. Chose your weapons carefully. If you need an internet sight (if it's YOURs, that's different) to help you make a sale, you've got issues. Just my thoughts.


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Dave_4

Thanks!!!!

Thanks for getting my point Mark, that's exactly what I was trying to say!!! I've never claimed to be to best writer.

I do mostly oil installs on very average homes where budgets are tight but people do want to talk about efficiency, I have been using some Burnham MPO's lately with the Taco 700 reset controls, most of my customers have been extremely happy with the comfort and fuel savings for the price, I feel very comfortable with these systems and I am 100% sure I can trouble shoot one at 7pm on a Saturday. When I get done reading many of the post here I walk away feeling like I've done something wrong. Is my selection in equipment that inferior? If I substitute a Viessmann or Buderus oil boiler with a high end control will it make that big of a difference in savings on average home with baseboard? I would ask the same of the condensing boilers but I have no experience with any yet.

GW

Jeffrey

Dude, you're doing fine, don't buy a system you don't want to commit to just because everyone is ranting on and on. How lame is that for the home owner who expects you to know your stuff?

I urge you to reconsider what you think people want to spend. In my area 90% of the contractors are selling basic boiler and furnace swaps. My sales professional is eating their lunch selling full system installations. Yes, we're ripping the entire old system out and installing new Euro systems. These are working-class customers, I assure you. I was stuck in that mindset for years and my cash flow was very very bad.


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ALH_4

value

Isn't it interesting how people you wouldn't think had the money to spend on a very efficient system are frequently the ones who see the value in it?

Dave_4

Thanks Gary

Thanks for the boost Gary, I felt like I was doing this a little bigger and better than my competitors, right know I'm happy, my customers are happy and I'm making money. I guess for know I'll just keep doing what I've been doing and try and learn along the way. I'm going to give a Mod/ Con a shot, probably won't be European through, still a little intimidated by the teck talk.

GW

now that mention it

yes. I can't sell 5 dollar bills for 4 bucks in some on the "nicer" communities, but we do very well in "regular" communities. GO figure!

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GW

call me

when you need a hand, it's mostly easy, some stuff to watch out for. It's also very painful when the suplier doesn't know his adams apple from his elbow. It's like riding a bike. 413-527-3317

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Empire_2

Just to lighten it up a little......

We all have our own opinions and that is our job to discuss, grapple and snare at each other. We are just trying to make point's, help others understand and correct some ( in my case) as to why it is what it is. We could all actually argue over how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop, and I know Brad will chime in as to the temp of the average tongue, Mc Elwain as to the relative humidity of the pop at time of lick etc...:-) It's all to talk among the trade to make or help others in the field to understand.

By the way, did anyone ever find out how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop????

I hope at least someone is smiling....:-)


Mike T.

Dave_4

I believe.......

just one.........


didn't mean to be a downer, just had a little inferiority complex coupled with a little frustration.

Empire_2

Hi Jeffery

One???????????????????????????????????? I came up with 32 and I know I'm right. See:-) OK here comes the silly rebuttals....lol

Mike T.

S Ebels

Sooooooo..........

Um, Guys, what are we supposed to do when someone comes here and asks (((((((((THE QUESTION))))))))). Tell them we don't have any opinions? Tell them all boilers are created equal? Tell them a piece of 26gauge tin is the same as stainless a quarter of an inch thick? Tell them there's no difference between a motor that draws .75 amps and one that draws 2? I'm in a quandry here wondering how I should proceed. Homeowner Jules, in the V vs B thread appears to have taken offense at some of the things said or at some of the people that responded. Granted, he came with an honest question and the thread evolved into a running litany of Vitodens capabilities and that's not what he came for. He DID however, come and ask what the differences are. So how can we explain them without creating the impressions that he obviously came away with.

Empire_2

Scott

Well said. That's how we make products better. Believe me when I say that the manufacturers listen... It may take time but it works.

Mike T.

jp_2

well what about

the guy who did his research, thought he made a good decision, made an acceptable wrong choice by that certain internet company, finds this site, asks for help and gets eaten alive cause he SHOULD have known better????

and all the crap I've heard about the assumption the home owner took the lower bidder when that info what never given out? or this totally wrong idea that the high bidder is always is the most knowledgable?

can't tell you how many times I've seen a home owner here get chewn to bits. "they got what they desevered"

boy how many times to 'you' second guess the doctors/dentists x-rays?

Steve Minnich_3

How 'bout this.....

> I'm a long time lurker and first time poster to

> the wall, I've been out on my own doing heating

> now for 2-3yrs and have learned a tremendous

> amount from this site, but recently I think it is

> having a bad effect on the average homeowner and

> average contractor. I recently talked to a

> homeowner about an upgrade to their old system

> and I was prepared to quote my first Mod/Con, I

> suggested they come here to get some unsolicited

> opinions on some of the latest equipment and I

> mentioned both Viessmann & Buderus, I got an

> unexpected response, the homeowner said under no

> circumstance did they want a Viessmann or

> Buderus, I was puzzled and asked why, they said

> that after reading many of the post on this site

> that they seemed to have a lot of controversy

> around them and seemed very complicated. They

> asked if any of the companies like Weil or

> Burnham made units like this that were less

> confusing. I have to agree that much of the

> control talk on those two units intimidates the

> heck out of me.

>

> I just wanted throw in a

> simple man's perspective, while many seem to be

> trying to " one up " one another on which Euro

> boiler technically out performs the other, I

> think it is sending many of the people who come

> here looking for a little info running as fast as

> they can away from this equipment. Honestly it

> makes me feel like I can't handle the equipment

> and I will certainly start off with one of the

> other companies.

>

> Not trying to offend anyone,

> just hoping it may give perspective.

>

> Thanks





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Steve Minnich_3

how about this?

What about a place on The Wall for contractors only? Shop talk may be more appropriate there. I agree with Mark in that I don't refer my customers here either.

I think it would confuse the heck out of them. There really are so many good equipment manufacturers and we each have opinions on who the best are. And that's all they are---opinions.

In regards to homeowners, it would be nice if we were less opinionated about our specific preferences. I think it would serve the general public better and the hydronic industry better.

MHO, Steve

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Mitch_6

I think some of the mod con s of us mfg

are imported under contract.

Just because the car says Chevy don't mean it was not made in japan.

Lots of Toyota's are made in the us (at least assembled)

Most (all) of the Mod Cons I know of are more complicated than cast iron.

Then again nothing was as simple as Millivolt gravity or steam.

Mitch S.

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DanHolohan

Yeah,

everybody knew that.

DanHolohan

And how

will I know who's a contractor and who's not, Steve?

S Ebels

Good points JP

(the guy who did his research, thought he made a good decision, made an acceptable wrong choice by that certain internet company, finds this site, asks for help and gets eaten alive cause he SHOULD have known better???? )

We all do that. Make a choice based on what we think is best and it turns out we screwed up or at the very least didn't make the best decision we could have. When get myself mired in something like that, the last thing I need is someone rubbing my nose in it. I feel bad enough to begin with. We should be careful of that. I don't however, have much sympathy for the person who chooses to utilize inferior products and incorrect designs solely because he think's "the contractor is screwing me", based on a price difference. That person should take the time to understand what the difference actually is. If the contractor isn't offering a legitimate value for the extra $$, then shame on him.

(and all the crap I've heard about the assumption the home owner took the lower bidder when that info what never given out? or this totally wrong idea that the high bidder is always is the most knowledgable? )

Sometimes the highest bidder is just that and has no value to back his bid. That's tough for a lot of people to determine but the consumer bears some research responsibility in their purchase. Assuming that the hack job is from the low bid happens because 95% of the time it's true. Simple as that.

(can't tell you how many times I've seen a home owner here get chewn to bits. "they got what they desevered")

As a professional contractor, it's frustrating when you get blown off by someone telling you "The other guy is $5,000 cheaper and he's doing radiant floor with a high efficiency boiler too". Especially when you have put in the time to do a heat loss, plan the piping and controls setup, made a material list etc etc and you look at the other guys bid and it says........"radiant floor heat with high efficiency boiler....$12,000" (end of quote) If a person chooses a system based on a quote like that..........then they did indeed get what they paid for and they deserve what they paid for. There will ALWAYS be someone out there in the contracting world who thinks they know a shortcut or can beat the system. Chewing someone to bits isn't what the Wall is about......but sometimes the frustration boils over and spills on someone who maybe did get what they deserved. It's hard to tell the difference here in cyberland.

Maine Doug_51

I don't know,

it sounds like we should do away with the Letters to the Editor and Editorial pages in the newspapers also. There is no more requirement for building owners or Heating specialists to pick a heating product based on opinions here than there is for adopting internet medical advice.
We read, ask, research, watch, mull over and make decisions. I want my info raw, not filtered by what others may think is appropriate, the government and business that have something to hide do enough of that already.

S Ebels

TinMan

I've thought about that too. Every time I have, my train of thought derails when I get to the same question that Dan has. I don't see how it can be done either, at least not without a lot of rigamarole (sp) that would discourage people from joining in.

I think the Wall is what it is, a big extended family which includes people with widely varying gifts and skills, in-laws out-laws and a few in between laws, 1 guy operations to those with dozens of trucks on the road. It's the blend that makes it special. Plus, we invite the neighbor kids over to play!! Lot's of points of view to keep discussions like the B vs V thread lively. Lot's of different interpretations of the rules for the ball game.

If someone is put off by that level of conversation or has no interest in wading through it, they don't have to read it. I usually find that people who get defensive when confronted by something they don't understand are just trying to conceal the fact that they don't understand. Not always true but I've been around humans most of my life

I think if we all keep civility and courtesy in the front of our minds, realize there are skill levels represented here ranging from none to astounding and remember that the goal is to educate and help, we'll be OK.

Do what you love, love what you do.

Will_5

Question

I know a few of the homeowners out there really get into the technical side of the equipment but most of mine certainly don't want to play with the controls and find out how user freindly they are, they are trusting me for that. As I stated in a previous post, most of my jobs are 1000-1500 sq ft house that I am replacing an existing boiler, most have 2-4 zones with domestic hot water and are finn tube radiation, is the Viessmann alone going to realize the customer any more savings than another mod/con. I've read 125 post in another thread that list many reasons, many of which I don't understand, but it appears to me that it's more of a " Mercedes in the Driveway" scenario.The more I hear of Viessmann the more it turns me off, seems like I should wear a white shirt and tie if I where installing one.

GW

Gary rant

I have a low bursting point when it comes to HO complaining about the bogus job. As the Bible says, "itching ears hear what they want to hear". "Oooh, Mr. heat guy, I LIKE your price, you’re my hero, when can you start?"

There is too much info available at everyone's finger tips to simply say "how should I have known?" Gary says, "by doing more research, NO excuse for you!” Dead boiler? Check into a motel and spend a few hundred bucks… make an informed decision, and if it goes south, keep your complaints to yourself!

I was worked up a month or two ago by a guy rambling on about a lame Viessmann install. I asked the dude in a post, "well, did you hire the cheap guy, or did you not?" he blasted one back expressing disappointment that I would pose such an assumption, yet he never answered the question.

To my knowledge, cheap guys NOR expensive guys with all the knowledge, referrals, training and professional image tie up these HOs in a full nelson head lock. We’re all adults, lets not moan. (only moan if someone complains about doing something they could have prevented with a little more energy)


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Constantin

Why wear a tie...

... when installing any kind of equipment. They get in the way... now bow-ties, that is a different matter... :-P

Coming back to your question though, I guess I would not knock a brand until you've tried it and have some hands-on experience comparing it to others. Some people are turned off by the price-point and/or the approach that Viessmann takes when designing their boilers.

More than anything else, I would consider signing up for some classes at various manufacturers to get that hands-on experience. Hear the various pitches, experience the equipment first hand, then decide if the various price-points make sense.

I'm not in the trade, but the way I would approach it is: Good, Better, Best. Sell solutions at different price points with pros and cons, then let the educated customer sit back and decide what they want to spend. The Vitodens is a very tidy package, with lots of features that other boilers don't have, starting with a VS pump, some very smart electronics standard, a incredible HX, a proven burner, etc.

Yet, it is not the only boiler I would sell. Some people don't want or need the "best" solution. Let them enjoy a different mod-con, as any right-sized mod-con will beat the pants off of the cast-iron monsters with single-stage inputs they usually replace. And there is your biggest challenge: Finding a mod-con or any boiler that will be "right-sized" for the kinds of homes you're dealing with.

With any luck, someone will bring a mod-con to market that can modulate from 5-40K or thereabouts to cover the market for small, well-insulated homes.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

That "Buderus vs Viessmann" thread is rather interesting...

Do though look at the original post with the appearing subject of "Why does Viessmann Cost More?"

Isn't an efficiency rating enough? Isn't 90%+ the same regardless of manufacturer? What is Viessman doing that nobody else is doing? Can someone please justify this to me before I spend my hard earned cash? Thanks, Jules

What the topic name was "Buderus vs Viessmann", the subject and questions were all centered around the Vitodens.

In the 140+ posts to that thread, Buderus was rarely (if ever) mentioned with responders concentrating the subject and the specific questions.

Then, oddly, the original poster concluded that he wanted neither Buderus nor Viessmann even though there was no comparison between the two in the thread.

Strange... Not all on the web is what it appears.