When Home Inspections Go South (GrandPAH)

Steamhead (in transit)

Please tell us what happened about the home warranty? Why didn't they come through?

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Dave Yates (PAH)

Warning - This is intended for educational purposes only

I've witnessed more than my share of mechanical mayhem created by both homeowner and contractor alike and I've personally seen far too many so-called home inspections that were performed by amateurs posing as experts.

For you home inspectors: look, learn & listen. This post is not intended to be a slam, but hopefully, it might help prevent a repeat. The homeowner can't really afford to deal with these issues, and she could possibly have had help from the previous owner - or avoided the home - had the nationally certified home inspector done a better job.

Fresh out of college with student loans to deal with, she also is trying to nursemaid a brother who needs a heart transplant. No one needs these kinds of headaches - much less at Christmas.

For the Wallies: ever see scorched air hydronics? Well, here we go.......

A cast iron radiator is rated for what maximum pressure? No, I'm not joking - think about that issue as we progress through this debacle. This rad is the first thing to greet you as you enter the abode. Looks like I'll be dealing with a hydronic system, right? Wrong!

Dave Yates (PAH)

Off to view the boiler?

Well, if you're like me, this was a bit of a surprise after seeing that nice radiator upstairs.

Dave Yates (PAH)

CO relief exhaust

Seriously, no home inspector should miss these defects. Lives are at stake & the HO's are counting on you to get this right.

Dave Yates (PAH)

hot scorched-air hydronics

You chust never know!

Dave Yates (PAH)

and more

it's tough to walk in on a situation like this and counsel homeowners who are extremely distressed. Financially pounded into submission, they simply can't deal with the stress. What you do, or don't do, has a very visceral impact on people's lives.

Dave Yates (PAH)

and more

it's tough to walk in on a situation like this and counsel homeowners who are extremely distressed. Financially pounded into submission, they simply can't deal with the stress. What you do, or don't do, has a very visceral impact on people's lives.

A damper set in a flue exhaust line?!? Not to mention the smacna tape and extremely loose connection. Look back at that water heater flue turning downward into this line - a full 12' back towards the water heater.

Dave Yates (PAH)

As for that rad & pressure?

Someone along the line decided the range boiler needed somewhere to off-load its heat gathered from the scorched-air HX and decided to add a cast iron radiator in a gravity flow pattern to dissipate the added Btu's. The only problem, aside from the fact that there's no regulation to govern upper temp limits whilst gathering said Btu's to potentially superheat 30-gallons of water, is that this hydronic scabbed-on system is operating at full line street city-water pressure, which is 90-PSI with spikes upwards of 110-PSI at night. That cast iron radiator is super-stressed.

Mike T., Swampeast MO

What?

Did someone encase a snowman to produce a gravity warm air system?

Brad White_154

Errors and Omissions

Dave- Welcome Back!!

The nationally recognized home inspection company, depending on what state they are in (PA in your case I assume) may have to carry E&O insurance, be bonded and licensed by the state. They are in MA now and that was to be in line with other states. Too many horror stories.

I am hoping she can recover damages. Makes one want to scream. At least the blind can find jobs as home inspectors.

Dave Yates (PAH)

LL

Looks like this

Dave Yates (PAH)

no mon, no fun, your son

She can't afford to go after the guy & his disclaimer states he has no responsibility. Man, sure would be a hoot if we could work without any responsibility for what we do!

Her home waranty co, another story by itself, dumped her off like a sack of poop at the corner. She's getting hosed left & right. Couldn't resist getting back in the saddle with this burr irritating my behind!

J.C.A._3

Oh My !

I think I see some screwy things day in and out....I think this takes the cake. Blow out the candles..and wish you wake up alive tomorrow, could be the only wish.

Welcome back GranPah, and thanks. Chris

J.C.A._3

The Lawyers...

Would be the only ones to make any $$$.G- there's a surprize!

If only these boobs could be held accountable...we may look like a BARGAIN to the homeowner. Too much to say, and not without any swear words. Chris

Brad White_154

Shakespeare

was right.

EJ hoffman

glad to see you

have not lost your fire. I have not been on this website for 5 years came back to ask a few questions about monoflow tees and went looking for some of yours and other regulars posts. Good education here I debated open systems with you read many of your resulting articles on backflow preventers.

jp_2

home inspector

for some reason, when I hear this I always chuckle.....

EBEBRATT-Ed

Dave

You sure came back with a bang!!!!!!! Those poor homeowners!


ED

Leo

Dave

You strike me as the type of business man who would use a lawyer when needed. Get a copy of that report with the "disclaimer" and run it past your lawyer for an opinion. Often times disclaimers like that are just to keep people from looking further and are actually meaningless.

Leo

jackchips_2

At least

you got in before a catastrophy, Dave.

Welcome back.

Jack

Mark Hunt

Dave


No way a person can claim "no responsibility" for complate incompetence whan they are hired to perform that duty.

I don't care how many damn lawyers he has, the guy put peoples lives in danger. E&O doesn't cover that.

E-mail the jerk a copy of the photo's you took and tell him that they are already on the internet. Next stop is the Attorney General.

Surely Bob Harper could give us an idea as to what can be done, if anything. At least get this guys liscence revoked? I'll e-mail Bob.

As you said, this is not a blanket condemnation of home inspectors. It IS a blanket condemnation of ignorance and there is PLENTY to go around in this scenario. Who installed that water heater? Who put the damper in the flue pipe?

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mark H

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Bob Harper

team effort

I got Mark's email and checked out this abortion. First of all, let me point out this is not a courtroom and we don't have all the evidence in our hands. We have not seen a copy of the inspection report.

Having said that, let's step back even further: did the home inspector install this system? Did he do the annual service? Did the homeowners show their due diligence by getting this inspected and serviced by a qualified technician annually? Were any permits pulled for this house? Any stickers showing service history or who to call for service? This didn't sneak in when no one was looking.

Back to our inspector: he has a duty to perform an inspection based upon the Code of Ethics and Standards of Practice by his national affiliation. He is required to belong to a nationally recognized home inspection organization according to Pa law but which one is up to the inspector. Dave has exposed one such organization for their ridiculous requirements based upon a simple online exam he passed first try. The other organizations take a dim view of gross negligence and can bring pressure to bear on the inspector. Someone would need to present a case to them including a copy of the inspection report along with one or more professional's reports with a cover letter detailing the problems line item and with numbered pics. The problem here is getting his report released to a third party. The way they write them, their is a danger of copyright infringement so proceed carefully.

Other avenues include the State Attorney General's office and his local township, where he should be licensed to do business. The homeowner may have certain rights under Pa. Law but would need an attorney to assist her. If she cannot afford one, the Pa Bar Assn. can assist finding a suitable attorney who is experienced in such matters. Yes, Pa does require professional liability insurance otherwise known as Errors and Omissions insurance. The homeowner can file a claim against his insuror. The realtor who sold this house may be liable as is the previous homeowner for a "hidden defect" even though some of these defects are not hidden to even a layperson with the naked eye unaided (stove pipe rotted).

Before anyone starts hurling slings and arrows, I suggest the inspection report be located and reviewed by Mr. Yates in the presence of the new homebuyer first. Then, a bullet point list of problems can be drawn up for discussing the situation with the home inspector and realtor. If they balk and walk away, then the homeowner can sharpen their sword and get an attorney after them and pursue these other avenues. You must be very careful not to defame, slander, or impugne this inspector unless you're ready to meet him in court.

It would be interesting to hear quotes from his report and if any referral for an HVAC contractor is made. Some homeowners will tell you "a home inspector said it was ok" but when you read the report, you get a very different picture.

Back to the rest of the team. If there were service stickers indicating anyone had been in their within the last 5-7 yrs., they ought to call their lawyers, too. If the previous owners had any medical problems, they might have a case for CO poisoning if it can be documented CO is leaking into the home instead of dilution air entraining into that swiss cheese pipe and other lousy joints. We still haven't seen the chimney on this abortion. I'll bet no one has performed a Level II inspection. Dave, did you or anyone else get a chance to perform combustion analysis and a worst case depressurization test on this?

That's enough for now. I'll let the group discuss. Thx for the heads up Mark! Damn shame in a lot of ways..... This is just plain ugly.
Bob

gerry gill

whats your next move Dave?

you gonna get a bunch of the local plumbers to help these people out?

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Mark Hunt

Thanks Bob!


You are a trusted source.

Obviously the inspector did not install this system and the original installer is either dead or almost there. Gravity HA systems are a long time gone.

But you provided at least some avenues of redress that can be followed. Thank you!

I would LOVE to see if there are any "annual" service stickers on this system. My guess is no, but who knows?

I would also like to know who installed that water heater. Might have been the former HO or his brother-in-law, BUT it could have been a "pro". I have seen it done before.

Bob Harper is a stand up guy. He knows his business and is more familiar with codes and standards than most of the "pros" I know locally. Search his posts and you will see that this is true. This is why I sought his input for this case.

This isn't (or shouldn't) be about slamming HI's. I know that Dave has already stated this at the very beginning of this thread. We have ALL seen horrendous installs done by "pros", just as Bob has seen horrendous inspections done by "pros". This is NOT the battle. The battle is: What needs to happen to change the status quo???

Bob, if you could post the link to that HI site you invited me to some time ago, I would appreciate it. All you Wallies should go visit this site. HI's sharing experiences and MANY are just trying to get better info so they can do their jobs better. Sound familiar? Let's form a team rather than battle lines. I think that works better for EVERYONE!

Could you post that link again Bob?

Mark H



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S Ebels

Kinda like

An oxymoron, or something, almost.....

Bob Harper

home inspectors' site link

http://www.inspectionnews.com/insite/BB/bb-frame.html

Thanks for the kind words Mark. Guys like you save lives not only directly but through your sharing of info and experiences, you affect many, many others including homeowners, building officials, etc. Keep up the good work!

As for this disaster, it might be beneficial to post some pics of it on the home inspection site and solicit responses from them. It could prove educational for all. You get to learn how many problems they can spot based on the information given then you can teach so they all learn! One note: for posting pics on that site, there cannot be any spaces in the name so you may have torenameyourpicslikethis.

By all means, let's keep it positive and keep the discussion flowing. I'd love to learn more about these old octopi monsters.

Point to Dan H.-- I have trouble following posts that are made in mid-thread and don't show at the tail. Just a thought... ;-)
Bob

Perry_2

Yup...

Mike, all the original hot air systems were gravity.... In my coal furnace cleaning and repair days (back in the late 60's early 70's) when I helped the local coal guy (as a teenager - it was good money) I saw lots of furnaces like that. Up to 18" gravity warm air lines, and up to 30" cold air returns. Other than the fact that they took up most of the room in many basements - they worked well.

Perry

Mad Dog_2

this would be HILARIOUS...................................

If it weren't such stark-raving-madness. One of the scariest things I ever done seen. Mad Dog

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Robert O'Connor_12

GrandPAH

What role are you playing in this Dave?

Home Inspector or Heating Contractor?

Either way, thats a bad one!


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

thanks all

for keeping this above board. Education is the key in this scenario and if this helps keep even one more similar incident from occuring, it's worth the effort. If Arlene sees this, perhaps she can help move the pics onto HI sites for continuing education.

As for the CO, we did not even attempt to run the burner. The soot levels upstairs are quite evident on walls and ceilings. For those who know this type of old steel-chambered beast, they know we're dealing with two heat exchangers: the primary one where that hydronic scorched water HX resides; and a secondary kidney-shaped HX that's concealed from view. My bet is on the juncture between the two HX's for the escaping flue soot.

It's an interesting look back into history, if nothing else. Back when a Sat nite bath was considered high living! The mini-R2D2 coal-fired boiler for domestic hot water generation in summer months is a study all by itself. Lacking any type of control to regulate water temps gives one the shudders when contemplating the explosive nature of super-heated water.

How we became involved: we work for several home warranty companies and this was one of many calls we've had these past few cold days. We reject more than we take, but this one caught our attention for some reason. Must be fate. At any rate, our tech called me on the two-way to say I'd better come have a look & I thought he must be exaggerating - he wasn't.

The heat is off & they're getting by on small portable heaters until deciding how they'll proceed. There's two occupied rooms on the upper floor without any heat too (no ducts).

If I can obtain a copy of the HI report, I'll check it out, but this isn't going to be a witch hunt. If the HI is up for some educational help, I'll do what I can, but judging from what I've seen, my hopes don't run high.

An ex-customer of ours used to have bagel shops. After going belly-up, he became a HI. Claims he can do one in 20-minutes! Says he's clearing more than $1,500 a week. ****, I can't even check out the plumbing in 20-minutes, much less the HVAC stuff. My PHVAC certs take a min of two hours & that includes CO and combustion checks.

Dave Yates (PAH)

role playing

HC not HI, although it seems a bit of HI goes with knowing the trade. More like forensic technology and a bit of unraveling the twisted logic that was applied as scorched high-pressure hydronics slipped into play.

Egg-shells - walking on legal egg-shells.

Dave Yates (PAH)

debate is good

EJ,

Thanks, I welcome reasoned debate on LD issues! A good debate serves to sharpen the educational senses(G).

Mike T., Swampeast MO

Perry: I've certainly seen gravity hot air octopi, but never one with a "hydronic" connection...

Perhaps it's just the photos, but other than the TERRIBLE flue, most of the system looks pristine from the outside!

jim lockard

Dave

Glad you found this before the fire dept found them. As for sending the HI, south we will have a rope waiting. Best Wishes J.Lockard

jp_2

CO in basement?

did you measure any CO in the basement?

looks like some fixes better not wait?

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

We'll be farther ahead

if we can educate him or her.

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Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

no burner

The heat was disabled and the water heater flue is actually drafting, diluted though it is by room air, into the chimney. As a result, the level was 0-PPM. No insulation in the walls and single-pane drafty windows. Were this a tight home, I'd have disabled the water heater too.

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Al Letellier_9

Home inspections

Dave, have really enjoyed this thread, as part of my plan to hang up the wrenches, I've gone to school and have become a certified home inspector. Along with my consulting work, this was a natural and more of us in the trades should think about it. It's because of jobs like this that I get called in time after time AFTER the home inspection has been done to check out systems. The HI industry is rapidly headed for certification, licensing and continuing education because of inspections like the one you brought up. We are trained to disclaim the **** out of almost everything in an inspection, but a good qualified inspector will take the time to explain how the inspection is done, what is covered and not covered and that in no way can an inspection be considered a guarentee or warranty on anything in the house. We all know that stuff happens, but there is no excuse whatsoever for one like this....many states and courts are starting to throw out exclusions and disclaimers and the industry, like ours, is suffering because of the rotten apples in the group. Keep up the good work and spread the news that not all inspectors are bad.

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

prezactly

Unfortunately, we only see the ones gone south - like this one. Nice to know your clients will be in good hands.

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David Sutton_6

Hi Dave

Dave, she getting a new system? Can she aford a new system?



David

Dave Yates (GrandPAH)_1

we discussed that issue

but, that a confidential matter I don't think appropriate to discuss in a public forum.

Quite frankly, who can? Hardly anyone I know has that kind of cash sitting idle - especially at this time of year. When I think back to how strapped we were when we bought our first home, I'd have had a heart attack if we'd have been hit with this kind of bad news.

No doubt she's shopping our price. I would too & I told her that. Hopefully, she'll know enough to ask qualified questions so she can sift through the fluff. Lord knows I did my best to give her the info she needs to make a decision that's not solely based on price, but I had one of those gut feelings that she's more focused on the cost than the end results. While we measured the home for my M-J calcs, I gave her a running commentary and repeated many of the points several times to help drive home the details.

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