My techs want to use copper on steam.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

I hate to pursue this unthinkable subject, but the physics don't support any suffocation/lack of oxygen theory. Hyperthermia is more likely.

Fred Almeida

Copper verses black steam piping

My techs are asking for approval to use copper instead of black for steam boiler replacements. Please comment.

jim_112

NOT ABOVE THE WATER LINE!!!!!

David Sutton_6

Buy your tech a book!

Get him Dan's book, it will benifit you very much if your man is going to do steam, No copper above the water line.


David

Steamhead (in transit)

Never!

only hacks use copper on pipes that carry steam.

"Steamhead"

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Al Corelli

Oh No!

Just say "NO".

Chris_82

steam copper

Trouble is that it's a widly held big ok and not ok. Time, not money is saved doing this, just long enough to get out the door and the check clears. Pity the poor customer that has had this done to them. More than once walked into a home and smelled that smell of a cracked pipe, kind of gets everything wet, automatically removes wallpaper, and kills all living things in the house, like your cat or dog or bird, and esp, plants. If you see this do some jumping up and down to stop this practice.

brian_46

is it richard

S Ebels

Pardon me for being blunt..........

The correct term would be hack or scab, not tech.

gerry gill

in my opinion

copper belongs NOWHERE in a steam system..either above or below the waterline..its still a cathode as far as your boiler is concerned..less you have some kind of copper steam boiler.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

bob young

true or exageration

copper on steam could actually kill a cat or dog ? is this true ? very bold statement

Chris_82

1986-1987

West Newton St Boston, around 1986 was called to inspect damage and prepare estimate for ins. Co. All wall paper off the walls, clothes, plants, and pet cat all in "heaven," par boiled because fitters left for weekend without reattaching radiator. Copper was cracked in wall. Drywall walls were, kind of melted. Common thermostat in hallway, steam must have been on for about 8-12 hours before tenant returned home. Because steam was all pouring into one room. Yes it did happen, and I have seen this more than once with copper! Although only one deceased cat, that I have personally witnessed. Amesbury Ma sometime around 1994 or 5, kid’s home from school, before parents, they went to investigate “noise” from basement, copper equalizing header cracked, taken to hospital for inhalation burns by local fire dept.

The electrical union L. 103 in Boston puts on a traveling road show re electrical hazards and they show some OSHA films, not available to the general public, you should try to see some of the interesting things that can happen. A local 12 brother is now a New England inspector for OSHA, there is about 3 inspectors; don’t know the exact number, for the entire region. He has a number of interesting stories about plumbing mishaps, get a group together and these people are usually more than happy to put on a talk about safety. And show plenty of gory pictures.

bob young

soft copper

SO what killed the pussycat ,the burst copper steam in the wall or the open radiator steam line ? if the radiator was open you would think the pressure was zero . must have been some weak copper to burst under zero pressure. strange stuff happens in boston.

Jamie Hall

steam leaks

will kill. Enough of the stuff is an asphyxiant (displaces oxygen) and it's real hard to go on without it.

Usually it isn't the copper pipe that bursts, it's a joint that gives. One of the first things I learned from these friends of mine on the Wall here is that steam pipes expand and contract like crazy, and copper is soldered... and the solder gives and you have a leak (or worse).

Besides, I get a kick out of threading and properly joining pipe!

scott w.

Question: If steam is an asphxiant hom come people don't die when they are in a steam room? Is it a different kind of steam. How about my steam shower?

GW

who

who's gonna read the book to the techs?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Chris_82

Mass Maritime

Down at the Mass Maritime academy, they have a steam emergency drill for high pressure steam evacuations. Grab a broom and wave it in front of you, if the broom suddenly gets cut in half, like butter, find another way out of the boiler room. Using copper is like waving a sign that says I take short cuts, I don't care, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. It's like piping a boiler with six zones and no valves, some people are proud they saved money, and other people point out what a pain it is to purge the system. Who's right and who's wrong?

DanHolohan

True

Several times, here in NY, children have died when parents removed the air vents from the radiator in the child's bedroom and closed the door. Steam displaces air. It was all over the news each time it happened. I remember a close-up of a Hoffman #40 on Eyewitness News when I was working for their rep. The reporter said, "This is the vent that killed the child!" Not my best day.

Mark Hunt

You are!


Silly!

Mark H

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Kevin_in_Denver_2

I'll make the guess that if a thermostat is limiting the steam room temperature to 110F then the steam is actually water droplets surrounded by air. Temps would have to be much higher to reduce the air partial pressure to a dangerous level.

Anna Conda

Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures; you got it in one What's in the steam room and the shower isn't actually steam, it's water vapour. Given that water at sea level atmospheric pressure boils at 212F, if it were actually steam in the steam rooms, we'd be cooking. Steam scald burns are *nasty.*

bob young

leaking joints

I Agree copper is not the correct choice for steam piping but i am curious as to what it would take to make a PROPERLY soldered 95-5 joint or brazed joint fail. not talking about bogus joints misfitted , not properly cleaned or fluxed, joints cocked or not bottomed out in fitting. i have seen a million soldered joints on steam in the course of forty some years and very few were leaking . real ugly piping though !

jackchips_2

Excellent

point as usual, Bob.

I wonder if the reason we don't see copper is because it just wasn't around for the "Dead Men" to use. Properly soldered, never mind brazed, joints withstand very high pressures, including from water hammer and the joints hold.

Plus, steel was pretty darn cheap.

Jack

HitzKup_2

Steam

Steam is an invisible gas so what you do see is water vapour.

HitzKup

Unknown

When I was still piping...

I cared for a 28A-13 section steam system, and every supply and return under 2" in the building was brazed copper. The convectors were copper finned units. The unit heaters were copper finned. The Everhot sidearm heat exchanger was copper coiled. You can order this and most steam boilers with a copper tankless coil. This building was built in 1959, and still has no problems with copper piping.

I've NEVER used copper on steam piping or condensate returns, but I've seen plenty of copper used with steam.

Almost ALL commercial fin tube is rated for use with steam.

Noel

jp_2

my guess

my guess, its more like 'drowning in steam vapor'.

but i think dan is correct, read your chemistry, not physics here. dense steam will displace the O2.

DanHolohan

Too bad

you can't tell that to Seneca.

Kevin_in_Denver_2

Right, physical chemistry

You "physically" can't achieve any higher water vapor partial pressure than the value at 100% RH for that room temp. We've all lived thru long periods of 100% RH, like whenever it rains. Once you get to 100%, you can't get any higher, and there's still air in the room, and it rains. Now all the water vapor entering the room leaves instantly as condensate, and condensate can't push any air out because it's volume is so small.

Inside a closed vessel, like a steam system, water vapor can push the air completely out if there are air vents.