Things I learned this year (SE)

Wayco Wayne_2

It makes me dizzy just hearing this. We all should be careful oif being "the nice guy." I'm guilty of it all the time. Have been burnt too. Hang in there. WW

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S Ebels

The hard way that is..........

1: Never work for friends

2: If you do work for friends, get EVERYTHING in writing

3: If you don't adhere to #2 see #1

4: When you estimate a job make sure that everything is actually as presented.

5: Never sign a lien waiver on someone's promise, especially a friend/long time aquaintance.

6: Never believe anyone who says, "I want the best you can get and do, no matter what the cost".

7: Nice guys finish last or bankrupt.

8: Review #1 daily.

9: Change orders protect your A$$ets.

10: Beware of builders who install granite counter top on Home Depot kitchen cabinets.



So here's the sordid tale of what will probably cause me to lose all of my hair, drive me to an early grave and ruin my reputation with my vendors for life.

Summer 2005, a man that I've known for 20 years, who used to work for me as contracted labor when I managed the family hardware store, who has lived honorably in this community for as long as I can remember, came and asked if I'd be interested in doing a job up in the "high rent" district on Old Mission north of Traverse City. The details, as first presented, included snow melt, zoned forced air with A/C, mega domestic hot water for two master bath's with TUBS, radiant floor in some areas. I thought it sounded like good clean fun and a challenge so I said "You betcha".

Turns out the property he was working on was somewhat distressed, according to him, having been started by a person who may have had a little collusion going on with the loan officer at the bank. (Red flag here) Long story short, my friend wound up getting financing to finish the home, 6,000 sq ft+, and said he was good to go. I gave him a price based on info he had given me verbally and what insight I could glean from the original floor plan drawings, (these were not engineered drawings or blueprints), we signed my standard contract form and things got underway about October.

The first Giant bright red flag that I should have paid attention to was the change in the snow melt area. I based my load calc and cost estimate on the info he had given me verbally, which indicated about 4,000 sq ft. There were no drawings of any kind furnished for the drive and approach. It turned out that the two areas, which were all supposed to be one zone now demanded three separate areas, each zoned, and they totaled about 5,700+ sq ft. (those of you who have done snow melt know we're talking some serious upgrading of not only boiler HP but also pipe size, tubing size, manifolds, pumping capacity, antifreeze, insulation etc.) This was how the job went from 3 Vitodens to 5.

My friend said "We'll take care of it with the end loan"

Then came the discussion regarding where to place duct work and what chopping out, re-framing, enclosing, soffiting, etc was going to have to be done to accomodate some seriously sized duct. The layout of the house dictated major disruption of living space in the double sided walk out basement. I gave him some options and he asked if we would do panel rads and Unico for A/C. I said, "it's going to cost more that way", He said "I want everything first class in this place, we'll take care of it with the end loan".

Not knowing what areas were what in the house yet, only the rough framing was done with a few interior walls, I based my panel rad estimate on 22 rads at an average of $500 each. It was about as good as I could do with the info provided. It turned out that "normal" panel rads were not going to generate the required BTU's or the "look" in a few areas of the house so custom Vasco's were ordered. I said, "These are pricey", He said, "I want this place done right, we'll take care of it with the end loan".

So everything was pretty much settled as far as job layout and materials were concerned, he had given me a substantial downpayment and all was going well. We split up the drive into two zones with a third zone serving the approach. The house was now all radiant in the basement/first floor, very custom Vasco panel rads were on the way, Unico was roughed in and things were going nicely, so I thought.

He came up to me in December/January and asked me to sign a lien waiver for the total amount of my contract price. Said the bank needed the original loan closed out in order to do the final end loan, which would provide funds to finish the house. I reminded him that we were far and away past the original amount due to the changes to the job. He said, (you guessed it) "we'll take care of it with the end loan". I told him I hadn't even sat down to see what the final total was going to be. He said, "I just want it done right, nothing second rate about this house". So I signed it and we continued with the job.

About the middle of March, I totaled everything done to date and went to see him at his house. He lives about 3 miles from me. The job was currently well over $20K past the original amount and I told him we had a bunch of labor to go yet. I also told him that I had not figured anything for using my backhoe to bury the underground LP tank or any of the other site work I had done. Nor had I charged him anything for using my scaffold for 3 months. The additional hours of time helping the "carpenters" he had hired (what a joke they were) were not shown along with many other extras of more minor nature. I told him the job would probably wind up to be on the far side of $40K over the original amount. Just add up 2 additional 15-60 Vitodens, the changes to the driveway tubing, 2 1/2" copper.........yep you know how much those things cost.

Bear in mind you have not heard me mention anything about a signed change order to this point.

Sooooooo, here's where I stand. I have been going back to the job a little bit here and there to keep things happening but we have a good 80-100 man hours yet to complete everything. The guy can't pay me because he can't get any more money to finish the job from anywhere. I signed his total waiver of lien assuming that he would take care of it as he said. Collosal mistake!! He says he'll pay me what he can (assume less than what is owed here) when he sells the house. The house will never sell for what he has to get due to poor workmanship and questionable materials on the interior. (remember the HD cabinets covered with granite)

I guess I just needed to put this out here #1: for all to see so none of you make the same mistakes I did on this job. #2 would be to see if any of you have suggestions as to how I should proceed from here. My gut feeling is that I tell the guy we will finish the job and payment in full will be due immediately. If it's not forthcoming, I'll see if I can file a lien on the place for the difference. The original contract clearly shows 3 Vitodens, panel rads at $500 each (estimated), two split system A/C's instead of Unico, driveway at 4,000 sq ft. etc. and is signed by myself and the builder.

Just needed to vent and share my burden.........this is killing me inch by inch every day. Don't let it happen to you.

See # 7

Paul Pollets

Not good...

Steve, I'd be talking to my attorney on Monday AM. Hopefully, you haven't installed the boilers yet, or commisioned the system. If you have, I pray that you still have lien rights. I'd be sure you invoice him for all changes as of 11/24, and send them by certified mail. Your attorney should advise you before doing any more work.

Let us know if you recover...both your sanity and your money.



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John T_3

Liens

Steve,

Sorry to hear of your troubles. Have you someone who handles your lein work for you? There is a company down here http://www.mcpanet.com/ that will take care of all the required paperwork for a reasonable fee.

If your friend owns the property a contract is all thats required as far as notification of furbishing. You may want to make the completion of work contingent on the approval of all changes with a firm price to complete the project. Then file a lien in that amount. At least if it's sold or refinanced you'll have a better chance of getting paid.

Good luck,

John T.

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.

Dexter, Michigan

Timco

The only time I did the old " if you put in the nice extras, I will pay you more than you are asking for them when it sells..." the builder ended up living in the home and I got nothing...not even the materials. Leined to this day...4 years past now. I had to beg, borrow and pawn to get past that. Never again! Good advise, SE, and I hope this clears up for you. Do consult an atty prior to setting foot on the property again!

Tim

Bob Sweet

Wow Steve,

wish I had some words of wisdom but I dont. Sounds like a tough situation. Hope it works out for you.



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Ragu_5

Steve....

From what I have read on The Wall the past couple of years, and from what EVERYBODY at Veissmann has said: you are an honorable man. Please don't lose sight of that; anything bad that ever happens in our lives can be overcome if we remember who we truly are and what we stand for.

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Mark Hunt

I hope


and pray that you can recover some of this Steve.

Can this guy even look you in the eye at this point?

Mark H

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John R. Hall

Sorry Steve

I have known you and known your kindness and generosity towards others. I have been so impressed that I have written two feature stories about you for The NEWS. I know you are feeling that being a nice guy destins you for last place but believe me, nothing can be farther from the truth. But I understand that you feel that way because of this job.

Hang in there. If you think you story would benefit others, please let me know. I will respect your decision to keep it among Wallies, though.

Take care.

Ray M

I feel your pain. Most customers are dont understand why we walk off jobs because we do not get a check. I have got burned many times. Having a so called friend do this is the worst. I wonder some times if i should work for some one and let them worry about this CRAP. Too many restless nights thing about money,bills,feeding my family AND THE WIFE B%$#@ING AT ME.


Thanks

Ray M

Comfort Tech Corp

S Ebels

Trying to figure him out

He calls all the time and stops by to check on when we'll be back to finish. He's either so brazen and callous that he doesn't care what he's doing to me or else so ignorant that he has no conception of what's going on.

Ray M

Arent you a bank? Most of my customers think that i am. He has to be confronted by you and the law laid down. I will finish when you get some money. Set a date and stick to it. If you dont get a fair amout of money by the date agreed upon GET A LAWYER.

Ray M
Comfort Tech Corp

S Ebels

John T

That's the angle I've been contemplating. Go to him with a list of all the things that were changed on the project and tell him to sign a new contract before we finish. The other angle I'm mulling over is to tell him that if he feels we're paid in full, I'll honor that but remove all the things that we have istalled over and above the original contract. That'd be 2 15-60's, about half the rads in the house, a couple thousand feet of tube, the Unico system, etc etc.

I've never sued anyone or liened a property myself, No one has ever sued me and I don't want to start now so I'm going to keep communications open and forthright with him. We'll get it hashed out eventually.

S Ebels

Paul

Sanity has always been questionable The 4 15-60's for the snow melt are hung on the wall and piped but not wired or filled. The 11-44 running the house is in operation along with the first level radiant floor and the rads on the top floor. The fancy Vasco's are hung but not filled. If they weren't such odd sizes (up to 13' long) I'd take 'em and sell them to someone else.

hr

A tough spot to be

money or frienship? Doesn't sound like you will walk away with the best of both

hot rod

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kevin coppinger_4

Steve...I was there...

a yera ago. I did most of the same things you did...trusted this builder,he had money comming, wanted to work w/ me, then was gone....left me holding the bag for 45-50K...lawyer was not much help period, said it was an expensive lesson....It was a hard lean year but we will make it fortunate for me I don't have a lot of overhead...you are a honorable guy...you will make it through this...kpc

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Robert O'Connor_12

Friend?

You MUST protect yourself and your family from this "job".You should demand payment in full (up to the point were you are with this project right now). If you can work out an up to date payment, then and only then would the "friend" thing kick in. Don't do another thing till you are. The friend (customer) has already shown his TRUE colors to you. Every minute more and every penny in material you spend there will not be recovered unless you generate paper to reflect this.
Get an attorney. One that specializes in construction contract litigation NOW!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dan Foley

Lien Law

Steve,

Hang in there. I went through a similar experience 3 months into my new company back in 2002. You will get through this. Call or e-mail me on Monday. I have a great reference on lien law at my office. I would be happy to share this with you. Best of luck! -DF

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Ragu_5

Doctor Ebels, My Dutch Friend....

As in all things, hiring a Professional is an excellent start. I like all of the posts; particularly Dan Foley's. I would follow up with him, but I am not you.

I think that John Hall (who one of these days will win a Pulitzer Prize!) made a nice offer. Gee, I wish my uncle Tony was still alive; he ALWAYS got the money. See ya.

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Josh_10

I think I can relate to #6 the most!!

Ragu_5

Steve Ebels...

I've tried sending you private Emails, but they keep coming back as undeliverable. Please contact me, as I have a lot of experience in this area, and I would like to talk with you. Email: hydronicman@peoplepc.com

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EBEBRATT-Ed

Steve,
everything you do is first class.

Nothing wrong with being a nice guy but business is business.

I would get a lawyer and lein him. His type will bleed you dry. He dosent care about you and you have to look out for yourself.

It's too bad to have to be this way but as you pointed out he is not acting "Normal" Thats a big clue
Get out and get away.JMHO

Ed

Constantin

Sounds to me like a \"friend\" in denial...

... and in need of a serious wakeup call.

Steve, I would discuss what is and what is not legal in your state re: repossession of previously-installed but not paid for equipment. If even remotely legal, I'd remove all the boiler plants and leave the X-braces on the wall for later reconnects, once paid in full.

As I see it, liens may work, but they only work as long as you're the only one suing, as long as your "friend" is worth something, and the court battle doesn't drain more resources than you're fighting over at the moment.

Your one advantage is that the job is not finished. He can't sell the home without a working boiler plant and I'd play hardball to get the system signed off.

I'm so sorry to hear that a "friend" is doing this to you. Hopefully, you will get paid, you will not lose all your hair, and you will only have learned a valuable lesson. Best of luck and I hope it turns out better than it sounds thus far.

John T_3

Can't you forclose on the lein? Liens expire, I would be taking this to court and forciong a sale of the property.


John T.

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.

Dexter, Michigan

John T_3

Could be construed as conversion

Of course I'm not a lawyer. But I did go thru a similar situation. It wasn't pretty.

Here in Michigan installed product becomes part of the property and can't be legally removed. You don't want to go into court with "dirty hands".

I would think the first place to start is to get some kind of contract or agreement in writing that approves the extras. Then a lien would secure unpaid interest in the property.

John T.

Custom Climate Systems, Inc.

Dexter, Michigan

jeff_25

do like the fireplace mason did he put in a pc of glass in the fireplace flue once paid he drop a chain now fireplace works

Larry Weingarten

Steve...

... I'd be tempted to print out this entire thread and send it to your friend by certified mail. After he reads it, you two should sit down and talk.

That's going to move things forward if he believes he's an honorable man.

Yours, Larry

[Deleted User]

Tough year...

The monetary loss can be overcome and written off, but friends are hard to replace...

Learn the lesson, make your mind up to get over it and move on with your life. If you let it, it will eat you up.

Don't let it. You're a much better man than that.

Take solice in that OTHER people have learned from your mistakes.

ME included.

ME

marc friedman

1st Law of Lein's ...

the Bank ALWAY's wins

S Ebels

Ya know......

I just want to say thanks to all you guys that responded here, called on the phone or e-mailed. It helps a little to know that mine is not the only ship to have ever sailed through these waters. I'll keep banging away at this problem and it'll get resolved. I wasn't born 100%, pure bred Dutch for nothin'.

There's no place like the Wall and there are no people like Wallies.

Thanks guys....I appreciate it more than you know.

Steve Ebels_3

Project update

Y'all are NOT going to believe this!!

I received a fax from the Grand Traverse county construction code office which said my original permit for this job was being canceled due to the project being terminated. I scribbled a reply inquiring as to what exactly "terminated" meant and stated that my work was not finished yet due to the contractors inability to pay. I also informed the chief inspector that in my last conversation with the contractor, he indicated that work would resume on the house this summer. I faxed the note back to him and didn't think much more of it.

About 2PM I happened to be in the office and the phone rang, it was the head honcho from the Grand Traverse County code office. He said he had received my fax and explained that from reading my reply, he gathered I may not be aware of the status of the house. I asked him what he meant.

He replied, and I quote, "Well basically, the house is destroyed".

What do you mean destroyed?!!! Like burned or what?!!!

"If it had burned it would be less of a problem." "We got word that there was water damage in the house from the sheriff dept and went to investigate. My guy says there is no drywall left on the bottom two floors of the house. It appears that the house was left unattended, the pipes froze and then thawed. It looks like the water ran for a few weeks before anyone discovered it. When we first saw it, there was water 4" deep covering the first floor, there are mushrooms growing out of the carpet on the second floor and all the wood floors are completely shot. Some of the walls are bowed so badly that your radiators have sprung off the brackets.

silence.....Well,...........is it repairable?

"Not really," he said. "Even if it were repairable we wouldn't sign off on the house due to other issues that came up and were never taken care of. The health department has condemned the structure due to mold all over everything and we've condemned it due to the fact that 3 pages of framing corrections were never addressed before it was insulated and drywalled. The house itself will never be sold".

The conversation went on from there but I was just stunned.
The boys and I jumped in the truck and went to see for ourselves. We found a foreclosure notice laying on the ground and the house in even worse shape than I had pictured. It is truly beyond salvage. The main floor and the walk out basement are 80% devoid of drywall and insulation. It's all laying on the floor. The stink of the place is on the level of my neighboring farmer's manure pit. There are literally and truly hundreds of mushrooms growing out of the carpet. What drywall is left on the walls is nearly 100% black with mold. The TJI pressure formed joists have started to delaminate due to the moisture, the wood floors are shot, tile is popping off the bathroom walls and the floors, the doors are so warped that they are sprung open...... even the subfloor is giving way in spots. It looks exactly like the pictures of houses in New Orleans after Katrina flooded them.

Tracing the path of the damage back revealed that the piping in the NW master bath on the main (second) floor had ruptured and provided the source for all the water. Just imagine the volume of water in the house if the thing was leaking 2-3 gallons per minute for 4 weeks.
Further investigation showed that the LP tank was bone dry. Our heating system however is intact and still holding pressure due to the fact that it was protected to 10*.

I would guess that the owners kid, who was living in the house, split when the bank initiated foreclosure proceedings. The bank and/or other responsible parties (and I find this hard to believe myself) neglected to keep an eye on the place, allowing the LP tank to run out. This of course led to the freeze up and subsequent flooding.

I just had to share this episode in the continuing saga of THE HOUSE FROM H--- with you guys. I have never seen so many people handle a project so poorly in my life. You name it and it's gone wrong on this place.

An interesting tidbit of info here..............I called a contact at the bank holding the note on the place and he said the house was going to be sold "as is" on the foreclosure sale. "Someone will probably fix it up and resell it", were his exact words. I informed him of the statement made by the code officer regarding the fact that they would never allow the house to be sold and repaired for future resale...................It was the bankers turn to be silent..........It was obvious that this was news to him and he immediately stated that he would have to call the code office and "see about that".

I tell you what...........This one never ends and it just keeps getting better and better.

I should write a book.

The Wire Nut

Perhaps...

... the bank will let you walk away with all that nice equipment you installed? It'll be of no use to them once they get the "bulldoze" notice from the local code office.

What a shame.

Steve Ebels_3

That very thing

That was the exact topic of discussion when I called the banker. He said however that their legal team has been working on this fiasco for nearly 3 months trying to determine who actually holds title to the house. It seems that the legal side is as badly screwed up as the construction side of things so he doesn't know if he has the authority to strike a deal with me.

The 15-60s we put in for the drive were hung on the wall but never wired, filled or fired up and I'd love to get them back along with the Unico that never ran and the Vasco rads that are undamaged. It would allow me to recover at least some of the loss on this place.

Wayco Wayne_2

What a wild tale!

I hope they let you re-coup the equipment on this. Thanks for the update. A very interesting story.

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ScottMP

Steve

I don't know how I missed this thread the first time but this type of thing should'nt happen to such a nice guy. I will repeat what everyone else here has said, You have ALways been a stand-up guy and a proffesional.

This is heartbreaking to read. I really don't know How People sleep with themselves. Your "friend" MUST have known what was going on and chose NOT to tell you.

You have a Lawyer on this right ?? If you don't Get One. You need to protect your assets ?

I am so sorry for your troubles.

Scott

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Paul Fredricks_3

Personally, I'd be figuring out when I could get there and get the equipment out of there. Forget the bank's permission. You'll be the last person on their list of people to worry about. Even if you grab one thing a day. Don't know the legality, but it sure sounds like this is the least you deserve.

So where is the owner now?

Brad White_9

I agree with Paul

Suit up in bio-garb and take what you can. You at least have receipts with serial numbers, right? Once you have them back in your possession, I would love to see the case made for their return to the house...

If you do not do that, someone else with no stake in it will, or worse, a bulldozer will show up and all will be off to a landfill.

As Scott said, Steve, you are a stand-up guy. That no good deed goes unpunished should apply to you of all people is a travesty.

Steve Ebels_3

Owner??

First off, no-one seems to know who the "owner" actually is. The contractors name was the one listed on the 7 figure foreclosure notice so it would seem like his head is the one on the chopping block. I haven't seen or spoken to him since January. I don't even know if he's around. He told me that he had mortgaged everything he owned personally to secure loans for the place. He's probably in hurt city. Big Time!!

Paul Fredricks_3

Oh, yeah, that's who I meant. I imagine this will be never ending event. I know you're feeling the ripples and will be for some time. Good luck.

Tom Hopkins

Reclamation

Steve I'm so sorry to hear of your predicament. Like Scott, I don't know how I missed this post the first go-round. I used to tell would be owers that I have ways to **** with them that Hollywood hasn't even thought of. Fortunately I've never had to follow through.

"Recouping" your equipment seems like a good idea albeit a little dangerous. I'm not an attorney and, like you, have never sued or been sued. It seems to me that, even if you signed a final lien waiver for the original contract amount, you have legitimate job changes which include a couple of boilers, extra installed snow melt, etc...

Check with an attorney but it's my understanding that all change orders need not necessarily be signed. Invoice ALL the extra work involved with actual or inflated dollar amounts and submit them to the bank. You will join a long line of creditors (right term?) who are waiting for money on the job. Since the house is now a wasteland you might get 20%. As someone posted, the bank never loses.

Tough, tough, tough!! I've never met you Steve but we've conversed through The Wall and by e-mail. You are a comrade. We all know that you're a stand up guy who doesn't deserve this. Whatever route you take and and decisions you make know that we'll be behind you 200%.

Tom G

Maine Doug_64

What are the odds that

the lien waiver you signed are still around? Perhaps you could inform the bank that hopes to sell the as is that you have a handfull of liens to file. But you could be convinced to not process them if you can go get your equipment.