Carbon Monoxide

Ich Wundermich

Have the Town Fathers not heard of Block and Compartment heaters that can be plugged in? Not only is the vehicle emitting CO into teh air intake, it is polluting wherever it is parked idling. Sheesh!!!

Mark Hunt

And so it begins in 2006


A heater "malfunctions" and sends five to the hospital.

Isn't it amazing how inanimate objects can become sinister powers waiting to "malfunction"???

Wait until we see how many "faulty" systems kill people this year.

Why would suppliers and manufacturers send us faulty equipment?

Five poisoned

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

AHA!! FAULTY HEATER!


I knew it wouldn't take long. "Faulty" pool heater kills someone. Was it "faulty" from the factory???

Faulty?

Again, how does something work fine for a while and then become "faulty"???

Mark H

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S Ebels

Faulty my butt!

Not maintained correctly/properly is more like it. There is vitually no reason for CO poisoning if an appliance is serviced by a true technician.

We got a call from a lady in Cadillac (about 20 miles away) that her furnace smelled like burning rubber. She also said another company had looked at it a week before due to the same complaint. We found a huge old Bard atmospheric (about as big as my Super Duty) in the basement and 28PPM ambient CO in the house. The house BTW is over 100 years old and drafty as a screen door. I'm guessing that the ACH of around 5 is probably the only thing that saved her and her kids lives. Classic symptoms were related upon questioning her which included headaches, light nausea, irritated throat, lethargy, the flu in other words. The other company did not test, likely doesn't have a CA. The cause of the problem was a completely blocked 12" breeching hole in the chimney. There were sticks, leaves, combustion debris, and a multitude of dead birds covering the opening. ALL of the flue gas was exiting the open draft hood and spliing into the basement. There was a list of service stickers on the old beast going back 45 years and it didn't look like a single one of the people who had serviced that furnace ever popped the flue pipe out of the chimney. Some of the bird skeletons looked to be prehistoric in nature. She is one lucky lady.

Mark Hunt

If you do not know

the real reason something happened, blame the dumbest participant. In most CO news stories, that would be the combustion appliance. I, on the other hand, contend that the weak link is NOT the dumb piece of metal but the ignorant carbon based unit that put it there!

More to come folks, sadly I can guarantee it.

If you want to be part of the answer, go Here

If you think that this is all hype....... sit back and watch the body count rise.

Mark H

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Steamhead (in transit)

One of the best quotes on this subject

comes from our friend Firedragon, in his book "Combustion and Oil-Burning Equipment" which is required reading for any heating person worthy of the name. He's referring to burned-off air tubes here, but as far as I'm concerned this applies to anything that came from the factory defective or set wrong:

"Even in cases where where the air tube is improperly set or the flange has been welded or set improperly from the factory, I will fault the installer.

Why?

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T CHECK IT!"

Enough said.



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Darin Cook_2

As I sit here reading these posts

The local news just showed a house that burned up in our area, new years day. Reason they say a "faulty" chimney. What did the news crew film the fire department doing? Shaking and moving a low boy oil furnace around! Hmmmmmmmm! I wonder how this one was "faulty"?





Darin

singh

CO poisioning treatment

Mark,

The recent threads about CO had me thinking, and I asked
my wife, who is a RN at AMC ER. In her 10 years there she says very few cases
come in that our co related,and as far as she knows, no deaths. Usually, the
victim is ok by the time they come in,all they need is fresh air or in some cases O2,which is usually given by paramedics.
She does remeber one time a group home, with five mentally challenge adults come in, they were going to test blood gas levels, but they only managed to test one, who was ok,they then SENT THEM HOME.
Looks like your doing a good job up there.
p.s. as for your experiment, I know very few down here have digital equipment, I could call a few contractors,but I'll get an answering machine and they won't call back. As for me , I bought a UEI over a year ago and managed to go back to some earlier installs to re-check. I am going to take the co class, to now to know what I'm reading.
See you soon, Happy New Year.
Dev

Mark Hunt

CO poisoning


is the most misdiagnosed of all poisonings because it mimics so many other sicknesses. In fact, unless there was an obvious connection to CO, hospitals won't even check for it.

Chronic poisoning is almost unheard of in the medical community for that very reason.

Thanks Devan! See you in February.

Mark H

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Ken D.

CO

In my experience, the number one reason for CO problems is lack of maintenance. You get a call at night or a holiday only to find the unit has not been looked at in years. Dust, scale, pet hair fouling the air inlets and burners, blocked air and oil filters. Coke and soot fouling oil burners,etc.,etc., etc. Blocked chimneys and or heat exchangers will do it every time. Many systems have been blowing soot for weeks or months,with the owner totally ignoring the condition. The only time they call us is when there is no heat, or in rare occasions the Fire Dept. shows up. It's usually not the fault of the equipment or the installer. And by the way, I believe many CO deaths are not detected. They are attributed to something else. Natural causes, heart problems, etc. Especially among the eldely.

Bob W._3

Interesting. I've often wondered about what happens to all those birds that winter around the flue opening at the top of my chimney. Would think that the CO causes a few of them to do a swan dive down the stack.

Bob Harper

fault?

This is so senseless and unnecessary. We go to great lengths to demand incredible safety features in our cars and other devices to protect us from ourselves. We REQUIRE annual car inspections complete with a combustion analysis report sent electronically to the State in order to get your sticker. If your sticker is expired, you get fined.

Meanwhile, we buy and sell homes with rotten, blocked up chimneys connected to appliances that were never maintained. Instead of replacing rusted out smoke pipe, it gets spackled with furnace cement. Nobody pulls the pipe, cleans anything or replaces damaged components when they can patch them. Nobody seems to understand the signs of what the installation is telling them and they need to call the office because they have one sick heater that is going to require the rest of the day to repair properly. How many techs carry spare smoke pipe, ells, tees and barometric dampers? How many know how and regularly clean heat exhangers?

The one common link btw all these shortcomings is time and time is money. The service managers encourage if not outright order techs to patch it and move one. Nobody follows up. Everyone is afraid to tell the homeowners the cost of correcting a problem. Then, they sell the house and pass that problem on to the next guy.

We're rapidly getting into a period where a lot more heaters and chimneys are going to start failing that we've seen up to now. Why? Because we replaced those dinosaurs with more efficient models but didn't address the venting, makeup air, and house physics. Instead, the Sunday paper and so many DIY shows encourage people to weatherize, insulate, caulk, and "improve" their homes unguided.

There is a huge market out there for someone with the technical know how, training, and test equipment to find these problems and guide the corrective measures.

In the meantime, we all need to lobby our legislatures for mandatory annual inspections of chimneys and testing of combustion appliances in the home.

Gary Reecher

Great Mimic

Anyone have any of the following?

Agitation,
Anxiety,
Apathy,
Appetite loss,
Ataxia,
Attention, loss,
Back Pains,
Balance Problem,
Body Ache,
Bronchitis,
Chest Tightness/pain,
Choking,
Chronic Fatigue,
Concentration Problems,
Confusion,
Constipation,
Coolness,
Coordination Problems,
Cough, spells,
Cramps,
Depression,
Diaphragm Pain,
Diarrhea,
Disorientation,
Dizziness,
Drop Things,
Dysarthria,
Ear Problems,
Emotional Problems,
Energy Level,
Extremeties Cold,
Eye Pain/Ache,
Fatigue,
Fibromyalgia,
Flu-like symptom,
Flushed,
Forgetful,
G.I. Problems,
Hair Loss,
Hallucinations,
Handwriting Problem,
Headache,
Hearing Problem,
Hypertension,
Hypoglycemia,
ILL, violently,
in Fog,
Incontinence,
Insomnia,
Iron Level Low,
Irritability,
Learning Problem,
Lethargy,
Libido Loss Oh No Impotence,
Lightheadedness,
Lips Red,
Liver Pain,
Memory Loss,
Mood Changes,
Moodiness,
Muscle Ache/Pain,
Nausea,
Neck Pain,
Nerve Deafness,
Numbness,
Palpitations,
Panic Attack,
Paralysis,
Parathesias,
Personality Change,
Pressure in Head,
Shortness of breath,
Seasick,
Seizure,
Shoulder Pain,
Sick Feeling,
Sinusitis,
Skin Cherry Red,
Skin Dryness,
Sleep Problem,
Sleepiness,
Smile convulsive,
Speaking Problem,
Spelling Problem,
Suicidal,
Sweats,
Syncope part/all,
Tachycardia,
Throat burning sore,
Tingling legs/arms,
Tingling Lips,
Tinnitus,
Tiredness,
Tongue thickened,
Tremor,
Twitching fingers,
Vertigo,
Vision Problem,
Vomiting,
Inability to walk,
Weakness,
Weight Loss,
Word-Finding Problem,


According to CO Headquarters web site http://www.coheadquarters.com/ChronicCO/StudyA/StudyA1.htm these are symptoms that could be brought on by chronic CO poisoning. Note the word could does not mean does mean that it could be from CO poisoning just that it may be the source of the symptom. That's why CO low level poisoning is the great mimic.

Mark Hunt

Another \"malfunction\"


Malfuntioning heater

Mark H

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Robert O'Connor_12

Close

Mighty close to home was this. Livingston is in my county. Scary stuff I read in the local Star Ledger this morning. Thanks for posting it.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Tom R.

CO

The bigger shame of it is that for under $50.00 anyone can buy a CO detector to protect themself from the incompetents.

Mark Hunt

Those darn vents


always coming apart when no-one is looking!

Disconnected flue

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Here's what the \"experts\" say


Read this, and tell me how many dumb things you find. Read it carefully.

Any homeowners reading this, 99% of what they say is wrong.

Mark H

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Tom R.

CO

For the "real truth" go to www.carbonmonoxidekills.net

Mark Hunt

UL compliant CO alarms


offer 0 protection for the following: infants, children, elderly, chronically ill and pregnant women. I could list more but you get the point.

The ONLY alarms that protect EVERYONE are the low-level alarms that CO Experts and NCI offer. Their sensors do NOT "false" alarm and they can detect CO in the single digits. (The new CO experts alarm no longer sounds below 25ppm while the NCI unit does)

Rudy Leatherman of Bacharach has done a bit of study on this issue and has found things that would make you never buy another home center CO alarm.

Just read the package. They tell you all of this right on the box.

Mark H

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Ken D.

Pretty scary stuff.

Everyone has a CO story. If only we could get people to listen.

Tom R.

CO detectors

You are correct, Mark. Most of us would benefit from a UL listed alarm. The others in the categories you mentioned wil pay perhaps slightly over $100 for a superior device. Either way, the point is that without mechanical ventilation in homes, these trajedies will continue. It is the only sure way to minimize the danger of CO poisioning. Until then, the use of CO detectors is the next best thing.

Mark Hunt

I want


CO detectors in every home. CO can come from SO many places it's not funny. A car idling in the driveway, a generator outside an open window..etc....

Accute poisonings get reported all the time. According to the CDC, over 40,000 people seek medical treatment for CO exposure each year. Most of these are people who were exposed to "limited" amounts of CO, or Chronic poisoning.

UL listed alarms offer no protection from Chronic poisoning. $40 may only be buying a false sense of security.

Mark H

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Anna Conda

Your not just kidding. One place where I worked, the managers arbitrarily decided to seal the boiler room, cutting off all infiltrating air, w/o adding any additional ventilation for makeup. Thirty year old boiler room, designed for infiltrating air. Boiler combustion got upset, duh. Gee all us ops dummies start feeling sick, there a flu going around? No dummy, we're being poisoned. Took it to management and what'd they say? "Well the door's not far away, you can just go outside until you feel better." Hello!

D107

home center alarm

someone from the wall recommended to me a kidde model KN-COPP-B alarm for about $45. FYI the web info says: "...will detect and store concentration CO levels as low as 11 and up to 999 PPM with its peak level memory display..." so in effect it doesn't sound for anything under 30ppm. Based on Mark's prior comments it seems that the NCI units are the only ones that sound below 25ppm and do not false alarm. As a homeowner, if they don't sound, they're useless. We can't be relied to check the units memory every day or even monthly.

Some home center units claim to detect for explosive gas as well (propane and natural gas) though I'm sure the wallys would have some comment on the sensitivity required for units like that. Seems that if a company could come up with one good alarm that would handle smoke, fire, CO, gas they might find a market. Home security companies could also push them. Perhaps heat controllers like honeywell, etc. could incorporate these into their units.

David

Mark Hunt

Well


all one has to do is read the UL standard for CO alarms and you will quickly realize that it offers NO protection from chronic CO poisoning. Here is a link

I was just visiting the web site of one of the larger manufacturers of UL 2034 compliant CO alarms. They tell you at the end of the homeowners manual that the alarms are NOT designed to protect against chronic CO poisoning but are targeted toward acute poisoning for relatively healthy adults.

UL2034 allows for up to four hours of delay @ 70ppm before an alarm sounds. What if the CO reaches 69.9999ppm?? Guess you can breath that forever!

150 PPM - alarm beween 10 & 50 minutes
400 PPM - alarm beween 4 & 15 minutes

Ever wonder WHY UL even got involved in this?? Check out The Chicago Story.

Now I have tested brand new CO alarms and have found a few that failed to alarm at all when hit with 500ppm CO and more that went well past the alarm time requirement. All UL approved. And here is another myth.

People assume that ALL of the CO alarms are tested before they are packaged and sent out to the public. They are not. A miniscule sampling is done for each batch and the batches are HUGE!

CO sensors last ABOUT 5 years. Ever seen a "born on" date on a CO alarm?? I haven't. And how old is the sensor?? You can push the "test" button all day long if you like. It doesn't test the sensor, only the circuit to the buzzer. (I did notice on the big manufacturers site that they warn you against pushing the test button too often. Seems the buzzer can cause hearing loss. I am NOT KIDDing)

The long and short of this is that 99% of the info you get about CO is plain wrong.

Rudy Leatherman has even more info on this. Speak up Rudy!

Mark H

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Gary Reecher

Sounds like you need to call OSHA, the local fire department, and the local gas utilities.

S Ebels

Add another untimely death

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10690112/

I haven't heard any local news as to the exact "cause".

Mark Hunt

Look here


Good stuff.

Link

Mark H

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RianS

Holiday weekend

I just had a no heat call on Monday 1/2/06, turns out she had another contractor out on Saturday 12/31/05. He said the 24V transformer was bad and because the supply houses were closed until Tuesday she would have to wait. Well she couldnt wait and its probably a good thing because do you think a contractor who didnt have a 24V transformer on his truck would have a CO meter? After installing the new transformer and starting the heat I was reading 280PPM around the furnace draft hood. Chimney was clear but the hood was so rotted it was leaking. I actually had 32PPM at supply register in dining room. The customer was actually happy I shut down the furnace before I left. Happy New Year Keep checking!!!

Tim_25

Testing

I test over 1,000 heating appliances a year. My buddies C/O detector went off and there I was. Boiler and water heater [both atmosperic gas] had less than 10ppm. Went upstairs to find his mom cooking on a gas stove with a new fangled heat deflecter that she said spread the heat over the pan. She had bought it on the internet. 75ppm consistently 6" obove the burner and the range hood not turned on. He had 40ppm thru out the house. Its not always the heating appliances causing the problems. If you don't test youdon't know!!!

Mark Hunt

Thanks Steve!


You're faster than Google and Yahoo as this story has not been sent to me yet.

I have received at least a dozen stories that relate to the CO levels in the coal mine. I hope they were able to find a pocket that was not contaminated.

I'll keep an eye on this story and report back any updates I can. Regardless, CO killed some people today (and a dog).

CO is the #1 cause of accidental poisoning deaths in North America. Who wants to help me change that??

Mark H

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Mark Hunt

Yah


CO can come from anywhere.

But if you don't test..................

Good post Tim!

Mark H

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S Ebels

Flame impingment

Flame impingment makes CO like crazy on anything. I've known people to change their staove to electric after they are shown what their gas cook stove is producing. For a real shocker, stick your C/A near a pan of cold water setting in top of a high burner.

John R. Hall

Is it any wonder

That I see more and more contractor groups take along CO detectors with them when they perform free clean and checks for seniors and the disabled -- giving out the detectors freely, with instructions for use. My friends we are SLOWLY seeing more awareness of this silent killer. As Mark Hunt so diligently and passionately describes, we have light years to go before we stop seeing these senseless trajedies.

Look what happened when people figured out that drinking and driving didn't mix. The problem still exists and people still die in drunk driving accidents, but the numbers are decreasing and the punishment is becoming more severe.

I'd like to see some of the those companies that Steve described as those who have left their stickers on "faulty" equipment, punished for neglecting to ensure the safety of their customers. Criminal charges for being ignorant? Hey, why not?

Keep fighting the fight folks.

Harold

Just a bit of a CO story. I have an old Nitehawk CO monitor (mfg 1996). It does not alarm at low levels but it displays them. I bought it a long time ago for that reason. I believe it was the only thing I could find that did that. Have no idea of its original or current accuracy.

I am working on my new house and got cold to the point of being dangerous (not all that cold, just me). After going to the neighbors and sitting in front of their fireplace for an hour, I turned on a borrowed propane radiant heater for a couple of hours. Figured clean burn, would be OK. I planned to bring my Nitehawk out next day to test. Couldn't find it. Two days of operation later I found it and took it out. At five minutes of burn I got over 200 ppm. Opened all doors and it took several hours to disperse. And I really knew better.

Took the monitor back home and plugged it in. I usually have it running in the winter but never spotted any CO. Showed 20 ppm. No cooking going on. Moved it around and it was the same everywhere. While in the garage (where the forced air furnace is) I looked up and noticed a damper on a pipe entering the air plenum that said (in magic marker)closed and set. I moved it to off. CO gone and not returned.

I believe what is happening is that the air intake is fairly close to the combustion exhaust. Depending on wind conditions it gets sucked back in. It could also be the neighbors furnace. Now I just keep it closed even though that will "decrease indoor air quality". I am pretty sure every house in the development has the possibility of the same problem.

I plan to tell the landlord about it when I move out. I have also put a sign on the furnace for any future residents.

Mark Hunt

Sir John


You..are one of the knights!

So glad we are in this battle together!

Onward!

Mark H

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John R. Hall

Sadly

The terrible tragedy in West Virginia may get people talking more about CO poisoning. A national news event such as this can produce changes. Or it can be forgotten over time. Let's hope people never forget and take action.

Tom R.

CO levels

Both the UL standard and IAS standard 696 alarms sound an alarm based upon the health risk from CO, derived from the concentration of CO and the time period of exposure to produce a certain level of carboxyhemoglobin in the blood. It is possible that an alarm will not sound for an elevated level of CO if it is for a brief time. It also explains why the standard allows for a four hour time lag before sounding alarm. This time-weighted method is normal for monitoring exposure to asbestos, radiation and various other airborne toxins.

Mark, I'm glad that my remark has generated such an animated discussion. Perhaps by bringing the shortfalls of available CO alarms to light, with pressure from consumers the standards will become more strict. We had safety belts before airbags. It is interesting to note the absence of a standard from NFPA. They simply recommend installing a UL listed device.

jerry scharf_3

don't agree with this

Check Rudy's site. A test group bought a whole bunch of CO detectors off the shelves at retail outlets. If I remember right, 38% failed to respond per UL specs!

So I do not agree that it was a testing problem on Mark's fault. They just don't work as required, and the requirements are way off.

I'd rather people buy 1 CO-Experts than three $45 cheapies that they think they need.

jerry

Bob Harper

here's a test anyone can do

on every call you make this week, regardless of the nature: service, pm, sales, light pilot--whatever reason you have to enter someone's home, bring in your CO meter with it already zeroed out in fresh air and running. You'll be shocked at how many times you get readings. If you do this with a combustible gas sniffer, it will howl on almost every house because of all the crap we put into these terrariums we are now building.

It's fun to see the looks on their faces as you're removing your shoes to show them, "oh, look-- you have CO in your house!" Since nobody has ever done that for them before, you're already in with them. Builds trust while saving lives. More prone to listen to you when you diagnose problems and prescribe remedies.