Wanted- Small ModCon

Brad White_146

Well, H2Omaster, that is not an absolute nor a limitation; none of the points are, despite being, I think, valid. I appreciate the question.

I said "US Made" it cannot be said that the US manufacturers have caught up with market demand, caught up with the Europeans -or rather have refused to. At best we have borrowed their technology with fragmented success.
The Europeans have already heard the call and I regret having to say that.

So the wake-up call is for those lacking in initiative, asking our side of the pond to ask themselves similar questions.


Think of my "US made" suggestion as the equivalent of shouting, "hey, stupid!", in a crowded room. <i>Someone</i> will take offense -and such is the power of a broadcast filter. (NOT directed at you, let me be clear, just to illustrate a point.)

My boss was in Italy on vacation in September. He saw a wall-mount boiler in his hotel room hooked up to panel rads. Served the two rooms and bath in his suite and was the size of a breadbox. Heat loss could not have been over 20K. So there is an example.

Cheers!

Brad

Brad White_146

I am sure this must have been covered before

but here at The Wall, we have what has to be the sentinel group, the best and brightest in the world of hydronic heating. I have to wonder what effect this has on industry product offerings. I have to imagine that some marketing folks within manufacturers value the input from the full range of the group.

So, I wanted to ask, could we as a group design the ideal ModCon, US Made with domestic controls and at a reasonable price. Not cheap but rather quality-based value.

The thought sprang from some recent threads, Primary/Secondary with ModCons being a big one but others as well.

Here is my wish list:

1) Lower capacities to reflect the proverbial average home. 40 to 50 MBH input with a 4:1 turndown. There may even be a market for 30 MBH or less. A distributed space heater.

So many older homes I come across have been improved greatly, with half or less of their original heat loss. Newer homes, "Not So Big" (R) homes and SIP/ICF construction have made a mark on heat loss that the available boiler models have not met this demand.

Older multi-family homes converted to condominiums, row houses with limited exterior wall area, all would benefit from a micro-boiler.

2) Stainless Steel construction, 316L for obvious durabilty. Aluminum with precautions on water treatment. Targeting a 20-year warranty, non-prorated, or 10 year non-prorated warranty with the years 11-20 prorated.

3) Domestic Hot Water- If not a boost in capacity during DWH, how about a second stage? If not, make DHW separately and call this a heating-only boiler. Let it do what it does best.

4) Built-in controls, including OD reset and curve adjustment. Simple set-up. Connect an OD sensor, indoor sensor. Boiler sensors would be internal. PID learning curves. Punch in OD design and design HWS. Set the curve.

5) Direct vent. Plastic zero-clearance concentric venting. Smaller, proximate to the fuel input.

6) Built-in VS circulator sized to do it all, internal and external flow/pressure requirements.

7) Price range: Spend on materials, save by simplicity. Value based on TCO, total cost of ownership. The cost per year of useful life should be reasonable; make a case. I see a $2200-2500 retail price point, more if it can be justified.

By making this the Model T, "everyone's boiler", a Volksboiler if you would, the cost would drop as a quality commodity.

I had mentioned this to the irrepressible Ken Cohen (of Hydrotherm KN and Aerco KC fame) last February. Why not make a quality boiler with simpler features for the masses? I think the market is there but it is more of a void now.

What are the manufacturers up to?

Not meant as a rant, but trying to fill a void.

h2omaster

domestic?

Why would you want to limit this to domestic(US) design and manufacturer?

You mention several concerns w/ foreign subsidiaries etc yet part of your dream is that this be US made???

Your dream is the dream of many yet why the exclusive for the US???

Conservation is a global concern that needs international input and co-operation.

If it is dreamable it most likely is do-able. I suggest you use the best minds in the world if you want to accomplish this!

h2omaster

G-rott

Add a low loss header and....

Add a direct conect low loss header to simplify plumbing and possibly an out of the box/ pump / valve / manifold system for quick instilation.

Domestic hot water could be addressed with an indirect with an electric back up.

Good stuff here.
Garett

hr

It is in the works

from what have heard... I suspect it will still have components from around the world. Why not? Even the Honeywell pieces are from every country know to man.

Assembly could (should) be done here so the boiler could be built to the buyers spec,not unlike a car. Chose the pump, valve manufacture, options on the control, etc.

Although I must say Weil does a particulary bad job of assembly. Every single connection on every one of the dozen or so Ultras are out of plumb, top and bottom S&R qas well as the gasline connections top and bottom. Looks like Stevie Wonder did the assembly :)Maybe they should include the 8 ells needed to bring the connections to plumb

Guess I better be careful what I ask for when I say assembled in the US.

A 35K would be my choice, able to go to 70K for indirect recovery.

I'd like to have an open HX to get away from "decouplers" like P/S, etc.

As I look at all the brands I have installed the Knight has the most features on the control for adjustability, check out their offerings, control-wise.

hot rod

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Paul Rohrs_5

Controls

Brad,

Here is my wish list for this boiler. Mostly centered around the controls platform.

1. USB and firewire ports

2. Outdoor sensor will also calculate degree days

3. Gas valve will calculate therms (nat gas) used.

4. Away or unoccupied modes

5. Modem and password protected access via internet

I love technology, but I would love these features to be able to level the playing field with this base-line. Therms used, degree days, reset temp, etc. It will tell us who's boiler was naugty and whose was nice. Those whose boiler was naughty will get a "Lump of Coal" as a reminder.


Paul



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Uni R_2

WHMCB Wish List

Nice idea... is is that close to Christmas? ;-)

Different thoughts...

Good controls? What is a good control? What are the essential features? Are those features the same for most? Hrmmm... I'd rather have the WHMCB have good internal protection controls but an external 0-10v dc interface for modulation. If you look at the Munchkin, it can use the Vision controller (a proprietary add on) or something like a tekmar tn4 controller (which could be kept if the boiler model gets changed). That seems preferable than saying here's the Vito, the most sophisticated WHMCB on the planet, and BTW, it can starve the house for heat if the DHW call is too long, it can't do smart recovery from a set back and that little RS box sitting there where the old thermostat was doesn't have a single number on it! ;-) Kind of like Mercedes when they never offered tilt wheels because their engineers were using the best angle according to "their" research. Anyway, I'd prefer it to allow anyone's controller, including their own.

Form factor - they should be more universal so that we are prepared when these start getting replaced by newer models and/or different makes. That form factor exists in Europe.

No built-in circs or compression tanks please.

*edited*
As far as modulation range, the ability to get down to 1/10th or have a dual stage model where the smaller part can drop down to silly small loads would really help when all you need is 5MBH because the bathroom is cooling with an open window or it's 52F outside and that's all the house needs. Build a wider modulating boiler and all of this buffer talk would disappear.

Woops... I guess a Tekmar tn4 can control a Viito but you need the expansion bus and the vitocom 0-10v dc interface.

Weezbo

It would be a good Work.

i just got a call from New Zealand..so i may have to chop up my reply in pieces...

having a variable speed pump that senses out going temps

senses field pipe for Freezing

different sensors for say ice melt vs home heating,
a proving function on the pump somewhat like pre purge ; with a fire , without a fire...a post fire purge time + differential temp or pressure variable to increase post pump purge time...

no fire continuous speed flow based on sensed freeze or change in head pressure. if in freeze flow , reset burner..no flame...call out, +light alarm,option to connect through computer comm line for diagnosis..
or( no fire out on high limit same deal or low water cut out same thing without firing boiler...)

Quality steel.

all reinforced, straight, square, shouldered take offs..
Top, bottom or top and bottom take offs. clearly apprehend-able by sight and with a Wrench

outside of the boiler jacket.and 1 7/8 physically from the shoulder of the fitting to the wall surface,.. minimum..

control wire connected by thumb screws to control and that to be connected outside the boiler through a rubber grommet and clamped or fastened to a reinforced point on the jacket of the boiler,beneath the control,outside the insulation....

low water built right into specific well.

waterproof insulated
for max combustion fire and combustion flame co2 monitor second alarm light for maint issues...or co levels within the boiler room,.. to be mounted Out side either the mech room or home to make certain someone gets the issue resolved... we are talking NG right...then maybe i leave off here and dash off to work...
,....

sometime later.

.....
maybe a take off for an additional pump and or a cutout switch for ones HRV or ERV in freezing conditions, ...

an additional supplemental electrical heat source to maintain some sembelance of a working environment when one arrives to make any repairs....

maybe switching on during fault no fire conditions or to take advantage of low energy costs or off peak hour rates ...

make it a boiler with Two electrical circuits and have 240 connection ....this way it could be exported with little or no incompatability issues... and so that the Remainder of the world could take advantage of higher efficentcy fans motors or pumps in 220 that had similar or same pump curves...

make a fitting that we export that Does fit from our thread *~/:) or send a couple 3/4" Cu male adaptors in the box have a KW rating along side of the BTU rating to give Them something to do in all that free time we saved them wondering how to make a transition from one thread to another, to 'something' that they can work with

write a small 148 page simplified booklet on every concievable way to pipe and wire it known to man, with "trick" questions in the reading to make sure that the installer is reading it and thinking

jp_2

off season loses?

i've been wondering how bad it really is?

when you are short cycling a 50 or 80,000 btu boiler I can see. but when you're modulating as far down as possible, really how bad is your efficiency? you're not requiring that much heat so your loses are proportional to that small amount of heat requested.

should you switch to a different control strategy in the early and late season? as i stated before, maybe a seasonal buffer is a good fix? or allow temps to drift a bit more(increasing cycle periods) when its only 45F outside?