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Smart Circulators
subcooler
Member Posts: 140
Smartest in the world. I bow in humility. Mark if you want to really help here you should start a class in pump management. Because all they will do now is install 30 vari-speed criculators instead of the one or two that are really needed. Your preaching at the choir Mark because I have no respect for people that start ever post with "let me tell yah" or people that you scare tactics to sell a job. Sound familiar.
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Comments
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In this months
P & M magazine Siggy talks of the smart circulators that work off of pressure, so that if using radiators with TRV's it will change speeds to afjust automatically. Are these availible? I'm starting a job today I could use one in if they are. Cmon. Let me be the first sucker to beta test it. (was that smoke? coming out of it??? Damn!) Has anyone else used one yet? WW
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I have the same question. I have been hearing about these for months now but can't find em. We have been doing this in the industrial world now for a long time with Freq drives. It is about time we had this technology available in the residential world.
I just sent an email to hydronicpros.com just to see if they may respond with some manufacturers.0 -
The future
Here is a taste of the future. Supposedly it is in UL listing as we speak. I'm drooling over these. WILO STRATOS!!! You need "macromedia" to run the simulator, you can hopefully find it on the internet if you don't have it.
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More info
Here's a powerpoint on the Stratos0 -
More info
Here's a powerpoint on the Stratos0 -
More info
Here's a powerpoint on the Stratos0 -
Stratos
Here is the web address for the Wilo Stratos. Very, Very sexy stuff.
http://www.wilo.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-3F57ABFB-C439B24D/en/layout.xsl/3448_INT_main.htm
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Wilo
That's what Wilo told me last year. The pump was ready to go but UL was the hold up. It's ridiculous how long it takes to get through the red tape. Hopefully the stratos will be available soon?
-Andrew0 -
Even so....
What seems to be being promised by Wilo, Armstrong and Grundfos are variable speed (not the adjustable 3-speed types) with internal delta-P controls.
There is nothing to stop you from using a Grundfos VS circulator (or others that may be available) and installing an external pressure transducer. The VS circulator will accept a 0-10 VDC or 4-20 mA proportional signal generated by the pressure transducer.
I specify Setra products for the transducers but there are others. The circulators run about $4-500 alone, the transducers another $150-200 depending on accuracy. It will add about $1,000 to a job all-told so if you can afford it and it gives good control, go for it. It just will not be a single package but then you do not have to wait for product availability either.
My $0.02
Brad0 -
Just got this message from Siggy himself:
Josh,
At this point in time Wilo has a circulator called the Stratos, which has multiple operating modes controlled by a microprocessor. Grundfos and Armstrong also have some larger circulator with built in multi-
mode controllers. 2007 will see new introductions of similar
products from other manufacturers although I'm not at liberty to disclose specifics.
Siggy0 -
brad?
could a $1,000.00 pump actuallly show a noticeable difference to the home owner? or maybe just a liitle too high tech?0 -
Not new
B&G has had small vari-speed circs. for years, but since Wilo is a foreign job they must have invented it. Rigghhtt.0 -
links
I'm not that familiar with B&G's offerings. Do you have a link or a residential system we can see as an example of where Bell & Gossett has been doing this?
Obviously what Brad White says is correct as usual. It certainly can be done with what is currently available. The Wilo Stratos does seem to be a nice advancement though does it not?
-Andrew0 -
That is the question
every practitioner has to ask themselves for the benefit of their clients. Sometimes it is energy savings and justifiable on that basis.
In the situation I can only assume here (a circulator in the range of the Ubitquitous 007), it had better be about superior control.
No, I cannot justify the additional cost on a financial basis alone.0 -
How about
a standard circulator and a differential-pressure regulator? How large does the job have to be to make a smart circulator pay back?Retired and loving it.0 -
THAT is the best suggestion
I agree totally with your suggestion, Dan.
As a point of reference, in Massachusetts with our energy code, we have to use VFD's on motors 7.5 HP and up for fan and pump applications (More to it but that is the gist).
Financially it can be justified on lower HP motors depending on how many hours of operation they see. But a 7.5 HP pump could move 400 GPM against 50 feet of head with 75% efficiency and room to spare.
That would be a big house- exactly like mine, only different!0 -
Now I see
This little vari-speed circ. is for the people who can't size a circ., can't size the pipe, don't have a clue what a control system should do and hope that this little wonder will solve all their problems. The next fad.0 -
How about delta t though? A differential pressure by-pass will mix higher temp back into the return. A smart circ. will allow a higher delta t for mod/con efficiency right?
Just a thought...0 -
no
I was just looking for information on the B&G setup you mentioned.
The use for these circulators has very little to do with the lack of skill to properly calculate head loss. It has everything to do with maintaining a constant differential pressure across the zones and thereby a constant velocity and flow rate through the zones as they open and close. It would be nice to use a pump that could size itself to the current hydraulic load just as indoor/outdoor reset does for the thermal load. It could save some electricity and eliminate the need for a differential pressure valve. I am looking to simplify, conserve and save a ball valve and a dP valve, maybe even save some circulator noise.
-Andrew0 -
it might make sense
At the same time differential pressure valves are not cheap, and eliminating an 1 1/4" valve can save at least a couple hundred bucks. I dont see this as a zone pump, but rather as a system pump with zone valves in a system with one or two system pumps total. If this could replace a Grundfos UP26 series pump and 1 1/4" dP valve, the price is not really that far off, and if the Stratos (or other) is in the $500-$600 range it makes sense to me.
-Andrew0 -
I'd be willing to bet..
the up coming ASHRAE show in Dallas will have some delta p circs.
I've had this demo Alpha from Grundfos on my bench for a couple months. I just recievied the union nuts to install it.
But I need to get a 240V circuit out to my shop to play with it. Maybe this weekend.
I had one contractor tell me he ordered a bunch of these Grundfos "Alphas" via the UK, online some how.
hot rod
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Fad??
I don't think so. More like intelligent trend. People that can't size pumps throw the biggest fricking pump they can find between the flanges, and walk away whilst the system eats itself and the consumer wonders if that whining noise they hear is normal...
You're hanging out here amongst some of the smartest hydronics people in the world. Most everyone here knows how to size a system And the pumps, but to have a pump with the ability to have a flat curve, would be nothing less than wonderful.
Personally, I was told by Grundfos 8 years ago that their VS P would be available in America "in the near future". I'm still holding my breath.
Then Taco came out with their version, and I've not heard anything either way on it. Anyone other then Dennis Bellanti used one yet?
Then Wio popped up on the radar screen. I have one of their in my shop waiting for a home. Only problem is, it requires 220 volts worth of power, which is not typically readily available in most American boiler rooms.
So now, I'm taking my request to a particular control manufacturer. I guarantee that it would be used on every job we do. I'm interested in doing it right, not overkilling as most "properly designed" systems are for 98% of the time.
And how come you don't use your real name? Afraid of saying or doing something wrong that fellow employees might call you on or something?
Sorry, but I have little to no respect for people that post behind ficticious names, regardless of how intelligent they may appear.
No cajones....
ME
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Sounds like...
we both suffer from the same problems. Pumps without a home due to voltage issues. I wondered about the possibility of using a Buck Boost step up power transformer. Haven't run it by the manufacturer yet, but am surely tempted to try it.
ME0 -
Agreed...
... a tool for every problem is a solution indeed.
... these circs are interesting in that they complement circuits with variable flow rates perfectly. Zone valves, TXVs, and other devices that change the characteristics of the zone a circ "sees" can now be handled intelligently. Circuits whose loads are constant may thus better off with properly-sized circs, not variable-speed ones. The beauty of a variable-speed circ, however, is that you can match the pump output exactly to the needed flow, giving a installer/designer unprecedented control over where the BTUs go.
Given the right home, the energy savings of high-eff. variable-speed circulators are impressive. If the aim is to build a near-zero energy home or some derivative thereof, then using one circ and a bunch of zone valves is a better way to achieve low energy consumption than the pump panel I stare at in my basement. Depending on your location, a 80% reduction in electrical demand may even pay for itself.
For example, if you're living off-grid, any reduction in consumption has a multiplicative effect on the total system required to keep your home electrified. Solar panels are expensive, as are the battery/inverter systems required to get you through the night. A boiler and BOP that consumes very little energy is a big plus under the circumstances.
... lastly, a pressure-bypass is certainly a simple, relatively inexpensive means of achieving largely the same ΔP control, with one important caveat: Whereas a variable-speed circ will only return water out of a zone, a constant-speed circulator with a bypass will recirc perhaps most of the supply water right back to the primary circuit, the LLH, or the boiler unless all zone valves downstream of the pump are open.
With a condensing boiler and the right style of emitters, this could result in a reduction of boiler output and efficiency due to the flue gases not condensing as efficiently as when the flow returns "cold" out of a zone... so I think these ΔP pumps have their place. Perhaps not in every basement, but definitely an option to consider in the basements of homes that can take advantage of them.0 -
Buck Boost
I don't know what the problem would be with that. Provided they are wired correctly (grounded/bonded) they put out nice clean power. You surely wouldn't need a very large one to run one of those little residential sized Delta-P type circs.
To me, a circ that has a flat curve (oxymoron) is hydronic nirvana. I mean, what more could a guy ask for especially when hooked up to a M/C type boiler? Constant P = constant T and that parameter allows the boilers with on board intelligence to modulate down to the lowest level possible.
Think of it this way. using a single speed circ with a DPB valve causes the boiler to "see" less than optimum temp differential when most of the zones are satified. The circ still generates the same flow (to a point) and a lot of the heated water is dumped back into the boiler which causes short cycling, which causes a loss of efficiency and extra wear and tear on parts. When your circ can modulate the flow level based on constant Pressure, you can adjust it to give the 20* split which is the Holy Grail everyone strives for in hydronic system design.
I say bring 'em on. Talking to a distributor that's been working with Wilo leads me to believe that while they will be more expensive than a standard circ, it may not be as much as you think.0 -
And at the same time
we will install a modcon boiler that we want to run 24/7 consuming power all the way and marvel at the energy it is saving. Do you see a lapse in judgement here?0 -
... not really
According to the ACEEE, mod-con boilers have a wide range of electrical energy usage. Some allegedly consume 8x less than their competition. I do not know how ACEEE came to their conclusions or what the testing procedure was, but presumably the pump used inside/outside the mod-con is a large chunk of the power required to keep the thing running.
A variable-speed pump based on boiler output should actually improve HX performance by allowing the designer to maintain a constant ΔT, regardless of firing rate. I know of at least one mod-con that can adjust the speed of the circulator that's in it. What's even better, a knowledgable installer can modify the speeds it can run at to suit a particular installation.
Perhaps boilers should be rated on the entire energy-fraction, i.e. electrical and fuel? Implementing a fair test procedure that also accounts for changing weather conditions would be a nice-to-have as well. Yet, the costs of developing (never mind implementing) such a test procedure and the likely resistance it would face from the marketplace probably makes the idea DOA.
So, I see nothing wrong with boilers that run 24/7, as allegedly at least some models can do so efficiently. For the best designs in the business, the energy savings via modulation and condensation far outstrip what little additional electrical power is required to keep the unit going. The proof is in the numbers, when happy customers report 30-50% gas savings on the basis of a boiler swap alone.
I recently played a minor part in a boiler-room re-make where a 011 serving 8 zones (without a bypass) was replaced with two 15-58's feeding four zone valves each (with a bypass). The boiler circuit now features a variable-speed pump in the boiler instead of the 007 that used to run the primary loop. The toekick heater in the utility room also got a circ that is smaller.
I'll try to keep an eye on the electrical consumption of the new 24/7 mod-con rig vs. the old atmospheric boilers + power vents it replaced and let you know if this NRT-designed system is electrically more efficient than the supply-house-designed system it replaced. I won't make any bets though, as I'm possibly liable for 3 ice-cream sundaes with a local re: the gas consumption reduction... :-)0 -
I have a class...
No, let me take that back. I have THREE classes that I teach people how to properly size circulators. Red Rocks Community College, Lakewood Colorado.
You don't need to bow to anyone around here. We're just a bunch of professionals trying to help others out and keep people out of hot water :-)
There has only been one person that has accused me of using scare tactics to sell jobs, and that person acosted me in a public restroom recently. If you are that same person, I can see why you don't use your real name. Is that person you?
I still don't understand why people hide behind ficticous names. Do they have something to hide? Or are they reserving the right to throw stones from the side lines without fear of repraisal?
To me, it is disrespectful of others who do use their proper name.
What are you afraid of? If you've got something to say, come on out and say it, but quit hiding behind the facade. We want to know who it is we're dealing with here. No BS, just great advice.
I'd send you an email and take this discussion off the Wall, but people who don't have the cajones to use their real names usually don't use real e-mail addresses either...
Mine is intentionally somewhat scrambled to avoid junk email from email mining robots, but it is all spelled out, right there, and if you want to take this off the wall, feel free to drop me an email.
JMHO
ME0 -
Grundfos assures me
that this 230 V 50 cycle circ will run on 240V 60 cycle.
Same with a bunch of the Euro gasification boilers I have installed. Pumps and fans work fine, but the microprocessors need to be the correct voltage and cycles.
Doesn't Viessmann send a 120- 230V inverter with the Vitodens. That would be another option to provide the correct voltage. I suspect it offers some surge protection also??
hot rod
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Hmmm...
I thought it was the fans and pumps that would try to run faster on 60Hz that is the issue... well, at least the pumps that rely on the line frequency to determine their rotational speed. Some pumps have VF drives which modulate the frequency the motor run at, other pumps use DC motors and a PWM controller, etc. There are many ways to skin the cat.
Electronic modules usually run on 12 and/or 5VDC, so the marginal difference that the line frequency makes on the outside is not felt on the inside. Once the AC power has passed through a transformer, a bridge-rectifier, and has been smoothed by a capacitor (for a very simple AC-DC converter), the ripple difference in a well-designed system will be essentially zero.
As best as I could tell, the power module on a Vitodens bascially consists of a huge transformer. I didn't see the kinds of power electronics in there one would expect if the line frequency were to be adjusted also. But that's not to say they weren't there. Perhaps the reason for the external power module on the Vitodens is directly linked to the variable-speed circulator inside. If the pump is not available in a 115VAC version...0 -
Taco VS
Funny you should mention this circulator. I am just now installing one on my own system and am taking a break from reading how to program it. (My brain hurts.
) My application is for the back up heating water coil for an air source heat pump air handler. When the heat pump reaches the balance point it is my objective to bring on the Variable speed circ and bring the temperature of the supply air up to 110 degrees or more if I'm still not comfortable. I'm having trouble deciphering the instruction sheet though. Wish their tech writers could simplify things for folks like me. WW
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Hey Mark
These don't use 220.
Mark H
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on a related note of interest...
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Yeah but...
are they variable speed based on either delta P or delta T?
If yes, where did you get them?
ME0 -
....Until you have to replace the pump!
Edit: I like brad's idea about using a seperate pressure transducer. If the transducer can work with a residential circulator, on a residential load of course. If so, the elimination of a PBV just about pays for the transducer.
Are those transducers available in pressure ranges you'd be likely to see in a residential system?0 -
The thing is, a BTU is a BTU. All we are talking about here is varying flow. So that single bathroom zone that's calling for heat.. either it can dissapate the heat from the boiler firing (mod con or otherwise) or not. Whether it returns a higher flow rate at a lower delta T, or a lower flow rate at a higher Delta T, it's still dissapating heat from the boiler at the same rate. So I don't see the Delta T increase as a real gain toward increasing HX efficiency at the boiler. Either the PBV is returning heated water, or the primary circuit will be sucking its own water back into itself via reversed flow at the Tees or LLH.
Yes?
I'm not sure I'm sold on the necessity of the delta-P pumps yet myself. In some systems there may be benefit, but In most cases I am not seeing any major benefit to system operation beyond the circulator power draw reduction, and as I noted above I would imagine that when the time comes to replace the pump, you've probably washed out any savings from electricity.
Depending on your rates..
Not much to do with your system there but more a commentary/question on this upcoming tech in general.0 -
wilo pumps
Best constructed pump on market in my opinion. There is a seminar coming in upstate New York week of 11 Dec. very interesting and you can see for yourself the quality of the product line.Have used on couple of installs and have great success. Also waiting for stratos to be approved and find a good fit for it.0 -
wilo pumps
Best constructed pump on market in my opinion. There is a seminar coming in upstate New York week of 11 Dec. very interesting and you can see for yourself the quality of the product line.Have used on couple of installs and have great success. Also waiting for stratos to be approved and find a good fit for it.0 -
Good Point
ECMs also had a chilly reception at first, with many in the HVAC industry wondering about reliability, etc. As a result, manufacturers split the motors from the controllers, so that a motor failure would not affect the board that ran it and vice versa. Once the bugs were worked out, the ECM speed controllers were integrated right into the fan systems they control.
Many installers here claim that their pumps last much longer than any zone valve. If the electronics are as reliable as the circulator itself then the savings may be substantial. Whether the savings would justify the higher initial cost vari-speed circulator then depends on the system design, the local electrical costs, etc.
However, I think we can all agree on the desireability of minimizing the return water temperature entering a mod-con boiler. Granted, beyond a certain point, the gains are small. But the incremental cost of going variable-speed vs. using a PBV is likely going to get smaller. If the return water temperatures may become marginal for the mod-con boiler due to the presence of high-temp emitters, then a bypass-less system may be interesting.0
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