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Global warming?

Mark Hunt
Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
Where in the article was there a mention of "unofficial temperature" information?

Mark H

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Comments



  • I didn't see any explanation about our rapidly shrinking ice shelves, and the only refutation of data I saw came from "unofficial temperature" information. If you're going to ignore the first one, the second part better be pretty solid.

    Pretty weak.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,719
    If you are that worried.........................................

    Purchase a nice boat with plenty of provisions because if what you say is true, we will all be swimmimg in a Miasamic Sea before long. I have kept an open-mind on this issue and followed it since it reared (so they tell us) its ugly head a decade and a half ago. In fact, I am rather liberal on environmental issues, but the GW argument on its head...is very weak. Mad Dog

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  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Anthropocentric. We still tend to think that the universe revolves around mankind. Even worse we think that we actually matter in a universal scope.

    Completely natural processes have re-made earthly reality innumerable times in the past--with time ranges varying from "geologic" to "immediate". The worst we can do is destroy ourselves in the short term yet at any time God can end our folly to allow another.


  • I'll survive either way, not so worried. But the people claiming this isn't happening are really reaching at this point. the evidence is pretty overwhelming, even GW and crew have finally agreed it is, they just say it's not our fault now. Big progress, there.
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,719
    With all due respect to The LORD and you........................

    then, bring it on......THe earth has survived the floods and locust and plagues...is this ANY different? YES! We all need to be more eco-concious..ALL of us. HOw about the rest of the world doin their part. China??? The new Global manufacturing gianT - we could start with them. Mementote! WE ALL NEED TO THINK MORE GLOBALLY! Mad Dog

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  • That's true. But the most effective place to start is with ourselves. Both because we have direct control over ourselves, and because we live the most energy-intensive lifestyles on the planet. So think globally. But act locally. I'm sure you've heard it before ;)
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,719
    An upside to rising seas........................................

    Don't the AMA and the N.E. Journal of Meds and "they" always tell us how we all need to eat more fish????? Well. boys, you won't have to go far for fresh seafood..no mo'....right out the back porch, baby. Mad Dog

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  • Techman
    Techman Member Posts: 2,144
    Global waming

    Hi All. GW and the ozone depleation concern go hand in hand.Refrigerants and NOX's sure seem to add to the problem,so work professional my fellow mechanics
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,719
    Yes Rob...you and I will.........................

    and I know for a fact that Mr Hunt practices conservation as a daily routine...but what will the rest of the idiotic masses do? NOTHING~! I am afraid. Mad Dog

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  • it's true. well, they will do *something*. They will plan ahead, or they will adapt, or they will die.

    I'm fully prepared in any eventuality. Thank you boy scouts :D I'd just prefer to not have to put those skills to use, it's been awhile :D
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    I got my swimsuit ready

    Thus it seems that global warming is off since 1998, it must be that all our politically conceived debates for saving the environment have worked... lets have a round of applause for the EPA and any other such agency.

    Now we need to be sure they didn't go overboard with their action so as to not cause us any global cooling. Oh, who I am kidding, we'll soon be back to dreaming up schemes to save the universe in spite of itself.

    Did you know, the no. 1 greenhouse effect gas is water vapor?!? Isn't that just one more reason for fixing leaky traps and air vents on your steam heating system?

    So, should I pack a pull-over with my swimsuit?

  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Hmmmm

    The information in the article is a "little" different than what Dr David Suzuki was presenting at the Viessmann bash.
    I'll list a couple that I can remember..... He feels that a global increase of 5*F could happen not in 100 years but in only 10 or 20. The laundry list of bad things happening due to that event and timeframe are downright ugly in terms of their effect on the planet and the human race. The premise that this is a normal short term climate swing was downright silly in his book. He explained that temperature swings in the global climate are indeed normal, but not to the extent that we are seeing today.

    I have done more than a little reading on the subject and personally feel that the facts pointing to an "event" in the climate are irrefutable. Five of the hottest average yearly temperatures on record for North America, have occured within the last ten. Those figures are from the NOAA. That's not normal. Coral structures in the worlds oceans are dying out at a rate far out of the ordinary. These die offs are directly attributable to a rise in sea temperatures. Often only 1-2 degrees average increase is enough to cause these reefs to croak.

    Various parts of the earth will indeed see localized cooling due to the fact that ocean currents are being affected. (Think about the BTU's being transfered by the Gulfstream flowing trillions of gallons per minute with a twenty degree drop from Gulf to North Atlantic) One of the hypothesis that oceanographers are analyzing right now is the effect of the enormous volume of ice cold, fresh (heavier than salt) water being dumped into the oceans by melting ice caps at both ends of the globe. NOAA considers it within the realm of possibility that the Gulfstream current could be altered or even shut down due to this influx from the northern ice cap. The effects they invision include drastic swings in temperature for Europe, nearly complete destruction of sea life in the Carribean and the Gulf of Mexico, along with huge storm systems forming over the Atlantic. Not happy thoughts at all.

    Dr Suzuki said these types of changes won't bother him because he is 70 and probably won't be around to see their effects. He is concerned however for the world his grandkids will inhabit. Frankly, I am too, and even if there is a remote possibility that these changes are caused by human abuse of the worlds ecosystems, it would be prudent to take steps toward moderating our effect on the environment at the very least.

    Not trying to sound like an alarmist tree hugger here, but I think it's pretty obvious that the weather is changing in our world. Ask the Inuit people living in the Arctic. Their villages are sinking into what used to be permafrost.


    PS: for some interesting math, do the calculation for the btu's transfered by the Gulf Stream. I don't have any idea what the real numbers are but just for kicks use 1 trillion GPM and a twenty degree drop. Actually the temp drop may be even higher than that by the time the GS gets all the way around to Northern Europe. Some really crazy numbers come out at the end of that calc. :)
  • Mike T., Swampeast MO
    Mike T., Swampeast MO Member Posts: 6,928


    Global thinking? Rather difficult from our perspective unless you consider the possibility of universal energy,
  • Saw an interview with Art Buchwald the other night...

    He's dying from some disease, and the one thing I remember about the interview was his last words,

    Brokaw: So, now you're at this stage in life when you're preparing for death. What have you missed?

    Buchwald: Well, the thing I'm going to miss the most is global warming. That's the only thing I can think of that I'm going to miss. And good luck to all you people who are going to have it.

    Kind of made the hair stand up on my neck.

    Funny thing about global warming, or global climate change, call it what you want, in some areas, it is warming up, but in some mountain areas of Colorado, they have received record breaking snow falls to the point that they are releasing water from dam storage a full 60 days before they're supposed to...

    I prefer the term human induced global changes.

    Someone, who shall remain nameless told me the other day that the problem with global climate changes caused by man is the difference between a knob, which can be used to slowly make upward or downward changes in volume, versus a switch, where it's all or nothing. The problem is, we don't know if were dealing with a knob OR a switch, and even if we did know, we don't know what we need to do, or how fast we need to do what ever needs to be done to reverse the damage...

    Personally, I fear it is too late to expect any kind of quick fix. Every little bit helps, but it is going to take a world wide effort to slow down the effects.

    I stand ready with solar collectors,high efficiency heat pumps and ultra efficient boilers to lessen my impact on mother nature.

    Bring it on baby, bring it on.

    ME
  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    From the article


    "During the last three such warm (interglacial) periods, temperatures at high latitudes were as much as 5 degrees warmer than today's. The second graph shows the average global temperature over the last eight years, which has proved to be a period of stasis."

    Mark H


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  • Mark Hunt
    Mark Hunt Member Posts: 4,909
    From the article


    "In response to these facts, a global warming devotee will chuckle and say "how silly to judge climate change over such a short period". Yet in the next breath, the same person will assure you that the 28-year-long period of warming which occurred between 1970 and 1998 constitutes a dangerous (and man-made) warming. Tosh. Our devotee will also pass by the curious additional facts that a period of similar warming occurred between 1918 and 1940, well prior to the greatest phase of world industrialisation, and that cooling occurred between 1940 and 1965, at precisely the time that human emissions were increasing at their greatest rate."

    Mark H

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  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    universal energy

    is here, it is free, available globally and renewable. It can heat our water, power our computers or burn the hide off our kids and grandkids. And we don't have to extract it. On the downside - it is still an emerging market (read expensive) although passive means of collection and storage work well. Further - it would also mean we exist at reduced temps, use cooler water and really pay attention to our building envelopes. This discussion finds me once again in the artic - sitting in a hotel room. The hotel is heated radiantly, has 8 inch walls and I am cooking with the stat set at 16 deg C. (adaption is on its way in the artic - fuel is not cheap and most days its cold) Outside it is a balmy -15 C.If you wish to have valid info re global warming - talk to any elder here; he or she will tell many stories of changes to the land (nuna)none of which inspire me to pat myself on the back for being human and a global consumer and creator of pollution. Here it is all about the land, the water, the animals. Flying in I was alarmed at the seismic cuts visible - and the potential of drilling in the Mackenzie delta for the oil there. We are still thirsty for under valued oil stocks, tend to burn anything that contains carbon yet we do not change our life styles (guilty) How smart is that? And then some dough head from great britain writes an article that says - global warming is a myth???? Mississippi was not an acident - its been brewing for 50 years.
    So here we are - a bunch of bright wet heads - with the opportunity to make small changes to how our clients warm themselves - and the more I think about this - the more solar collection and conversion makes sense. I have started it at home - and once I have some realistic data on heat gains - may have to change the company name to reflect the preferred hear source. No - I am not a greenie - far from it - but I am completely convinced of two things - global warming is real and oil is running out. Both of which are in our hands as a race of humans - Can we adapt to survive?
  • Brad White_55
    Brad White_55 Member Posts: 6
    Warm Thoughts

    Having seen both sides of this issue for years now, it is clear to me that the earth is at present warming. But then it will cool. It has done so for eons. Warming and cooling is cyclical and since our last mini-ice age in the past 400 years, it indeed is coming out of it. Remember the Bruegel paintings of skating in Flanders and Holland? They have not for many years.

    The common mistake I see most proponents taking an upward curve and assuming it's continuation without limit.
    When I was in school (1960's and 70's) the rage at the time was the coming ice age. When that did not happen...chicken little had to buy a new script it seems to me.

    Should we conserve? Yes, of course. But to react to perceived temperature increases years from now when we cannot predict the temperature a week from now gives me pause.

    Is the earth warming? Probably. Will it cool again? Definitely. Is man responsible due to CO2 emissions? Doubtful when what we produce pales in comparison to what nature spews forth. Besides, CO2 is fractional. Plants love it, thrive on it. More plants are good, right? We have more forest area than 100 years ago thanks to conservation and organized planting. More oxygen.


    Bigger greenhouse gas is water vapor. Much more of that on our water borne planet. We flatter ourselves as causing it yet we stand helpless to do anything about it. If we could cause it we could stop it. We are too powerful yet have no power. Never could reconcile that.

    Where I become skeptical is where proponents of global warming armageddon seem to have underlying agendas. Many have "solutions" that -surprise- expect my tax money to finance them. Others have a more globalist view such as the UN, yet allowing developing countries exemption from both conservation and pollution standards. When I read an article I do the "junk science" test; I follow the money or the underlying political agenda.

    There are arguments on both sides and examples to support cooling and heating. Neither is proof but do have to be taken as the whole. Matter is neither created nor destroyed yet we are creating CO2 supposedly. No one seems to understand that it also changes composition too. Not a growing pie, just borrowing a slice now and again. It is all the same atoms.

    The biggest "tool" that supports global warming is the now discredited "hockey-stick" temperature graph. By counting what I believe to be bristlecone pine tree rings, a relatively flat temperature gradient was observed with a sudden uptick. 2,000 years of "data". From one -ONE- tree. Not a sound basis for policy, IMHO.

    The ice caps on Antarctica are growing it is clear and yet glaciers are calving, breaking off. That is what they do. We do not have the Dust Bowl of the 1930's either. The Sahara ebs and flows. Cycles. Think cycles.


    My observations.

    Brad
  • ScottMP
    ScottMP Member Posts: 5,884
    And this Kids

    Is why I come to the wall and am addicted to it.

    Great conversation and debate. Opening my mind and making me think. I grow my business by what I read on the wall. I look at my life differently by what I read here.

    Keep up the great work and keep discussions like this alive.

    Scott

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  • jackchips_2
    jackchips_2 Member Posts: 1,338
    I'm with

    Scott.

    Excellent conversation and you certainly add with your points, Brad.

    A few years ago there was a woman governor of, I believe, Washington, who wrote a point/counterpoint on this subject and reading your post is like reflecting on what she used to say. I think her first name was Dixie.

    Jack
  • DanHolohan
    DanHolohan Member, Moderator, Administrator Posts: 16,490
    Agreed.

    And it's nice to see this without the politics and religion.
    Retired and loving it.
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Dixie Lee Ray as I recall

    A marine biologist or oceanographer, I forget which. Brilliant woman and a proponent of nuclear power. My uncle Arthur met her when he was working at Hanford in the nuclear industry. He was impressed and does not impress easily.
  • Tony_23
    Tony_23 Member Posts: 1,033
    Excellent post, Brad

    My view also. I asked once "whatever happened to The Impending Ice Age ?" and got pasted for it. Certainly 30 years of study can't predict what will happen in the next 100 when the previous 500 are ignored.

    Last week I caught part of a program on History Channel about the last Mini Ice Age. They propose that warm oceanic currents melt glaciers until a tipping point is met, changing the flow just enough to slow the melt. Thermal currents at work, just like a lake "turning" in the summer. Just bigger :)

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  • Jim Davis_3
    Jim Davis_3 Member Posts: 578
    US Energy Information Administration

    ftp://ftp.eia.doe.gov/pub/oiaf/1605/cdrom/pdf/ggrpt/057301.pdf

    I pass this information out in class. It bascally states that the most prevelant green house gas is water vapor. It comprises 95% of the green house gases. Man contributes less than 3% of all total emissions. Other articles I have read state that annually forest fires, brush fires contribute more to pollution than man can in years.
    If we as an industry are all really concerned about pollution why isn't there a requirement to combustion test all appliances to maximize their efficiency and minimize pollution? At this time industry standards totally ignore this subject!
  • Mad Dog_2
    Mad Dog_2 Member Posts: 6,719
    Common sense , calm., and rational thought

    trump hysteria. Excellent points Brad. Mad Dog

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  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    One Word...

    ... and that is "volcano". Krakatau alone has periodically caused some "interesting" climate changes. The biggest known one was about 500 A.D. It screwed up weather patterns - big time - for 150 years. And that's what finally did-in what was left of the Roman Empire. Several other empires world wide vanished at the same time. That eruption literally ushered in the period known as "The Dark Ages".
  • Christian Egli_2
    Christian Egli_2 Member Posts: 812
    Krakatau - no problem

    All we need to do is vote in a special anti-volcano tax, then with this glorious revenue we can fund super clean-up efforts for the mess left over by such volcano as the Mount St Helen and the Mount Pinatubo. We can also divert the money for all sorts of other programs. Glorious indeed.

    I've got a broom and a bucket, where shall we start sweeping up the dust? :)

    Honestly, I am not being serious. Don't take my volcano tax message to heart. The fairest volcanoes are flat.
  • even if you don't believe in global warming

    you have to know the planet is polluted with mercury, every lake, river, stream, and pond! And the oceans are becoming polluted from mercury- just read the fish consumption warnings. How did we let it get to this point? The mercury is enough reason alone, to go after renewable energy. Bob Gagnon

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  • Tony Conner_2
    Tony Conner_2 Member Posts: 443
    You Do...

    ...realize that the vast majority of mercury in the atmosphere over North America drifts here from other continents, right?
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    And

    is found naturally... it is an element not a compound.
  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    It seems.............

    There are as many opinions regarding cause and effect as there are scientists who study these things. There is one thing that nearly all are in agreement on, which is that the climate is indeed getting warmer.

    When I was a wee pup going to school we had a lot of "snow days" every winter due to blizzards. Sometimes school would be called off for 2 and 3 days at a time because things were shut down. In the early 70's I remember delivering groceries from our store to people on our snowmobile. Getting stuck even on that machine happened more than once. In 1978 Kathy took a picture of me standing on the roof of our car, holding both our twins who were a year old, we just ran across it again a couple weeks ago. The car roof was probably 5 feet tall and I stood about 6'4" then, making a total of about 11' to the top of my head. The snow bank along the road was still taller by about 2' judging from the picture. We had snow like that into 1982-1983 regularly and have not seen it since. My boys, now 20 and 25, have not seen snow in those amounts in their lifetimes.

    This article below popped up on MSMBC today.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12273188/from/RS.3/
  • Ted_13
    Ted_13 Member Posts: 40
    CLAIM: Global-warming alarmists intimidate dissenting scientists

    Just when I was buying into global warming now today I come across this
    http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220

    I just have to ask, "let's be honest!!"

    Either way it's got to be in our best intrest to use less fossil fuels.

    Go GEO
  • PJO_5
    PJO_5 Member Posts: 199
    Great Points Made...A Possible Clarification Though

    Brad,

    "We have more forest area than 100 years ago thanks to conservation and organized planting. More oxygen."

    That may be true in this country (although I doubt it that overall there are more trees now), it is not so in the worldwide scheme of things - and this is a worldly discussion! ;-)

    The largest producer of oxygen (and other things) - and thus receiver of CO2 - from nature, is the rain forests...what is happening to them? Is this man's doing?

    I agree with nearly all of the rest of your excellent post - especially about cycles. We are simply adding to the current heating cycle; kind of like boosting the boiler temp. a bit and increasing it's "cycle"?

    Take Care, PJO
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    Thanks Patrick

    Yes, globally we may be about even on trees but European reforestation and even Siberia are almost back to wilderness where once was bare.

    The rain forest issue- that is another one. It was always told to me that "you cannot kill a jungle". I heard a lecturer at the Kennedy School of Government state that something like "50 acres a second" were being destroyed forever... it was so absurd he had no credibility with much of the audience. You could hear the groans and teeth sucking, shaking of heads and looking at each other. One person a row behind me said the forest would be gone by the lecturer's next pee break at that rate.

    The rain forest depletion is said to be by the hand of man as forests are harvested for lumber, burned for clearing farm land. Mostly in Brazil, a, shall we say, financially compromized country.

    Thin topsoil is said to was away so easily. I wonder how a jungle like that can survive on thin topsoil? Again, my inner skeptic. African topsoil is meters deep. Drop a seed and stand back, you might get hurt, things grow so fast.

    I guess I am left to reconcile what I know with what I think I know, with what seems rational.
  • Rob_32
    Rob_32 Member Posts: 50
    Hey! A topic I know a lot about!

    When I'm not asking you all for help with my improperly positioned PONPC, in real life I am a scientist engaged in research having to do with climate change (sea-level and coastal processes, mostly, but since these things are driven by weather and climate changes at different time scales, one has to understand them as well).

    I'd love to contribute to this discussion, but presently I'm in the field and tied to a slow, unreliable dialup connection. That and doing 19 hr days.... If this thread persists through later next week, I'd love to offer some thoughts.

    I will say that you guys are very sharp, and in my experience have a level of knowledge and a penchant for rational thought and discourse that is far, far above the average US citizen (not being patronizing here; it's part of my job to know this kind of stuff). You also correctly perceive some of the underlying agendas driving both sides of the climate change issue. It is unfortunate that what should be objectively researched and reported is so affected by politics, funding, etc. Makes understanding whether climate change matters in rate, magnitude and on time scales that we need to be concerned about (my opinion: it does and we do) very difficult.

    Have a good discussion!
  • Brad White_9
    Brad White_9 Member Posts: 2,440
    I think, Rob

    that you would make an excellent moderator and of course, participant.

    Your range of input would rapidly go from PONPC to PONTC, am I correct? :)
  • Weezbo
    Weezbo Member Posts: 6,232
    are you into Red Tide and Ocean fauna health?

  • S Ebels
    S Ebels Member Posts: 2,322
    Hot Dog!!

    We'll try and keep the post alive til you get back.
  • Glen
    Glen Member Posts: 855
    Rob -

    here I sit once again in the artic - servicing boilers colored orange. If you really want quality info - come and talk to the elders in the North. Can you imagine grass hoppers in the artic - first time ever - elders are still amazed. In a culture fostered by verbal stories - no one can remember grass hoppers - in fact the local language does not have a term for them. Climate change is real - and the more I travel the artic - the greener I get.
This discussion has been closed.