Boiler Supply

STEVEN MARKS

Each zone must have its own check when using pumps.

Tony G

Hello,

I just added 2 new zones to my house using circulators. What I noticed is that when the downstairs zone is running suppling heat the upstairs radiators are also hot. How do I stop the upstairs from getting heat when the downstairs is suppose to get heat?

Ron Schroeder_3

ghost flow?

Could you include a brief sketch of your boiler room layout? Before and after would be best. Ideally a few photos would help even more. Cheers.

Tony G

New at this

Hi Fred,

I'm kinda new at this so it will be difficult. But, what I have are circulators on the return pushing water through the boiler. On the supply I have expansion tank, check valve, than I break out three zones. Each zone has shut off then they go to different parts of the house. Each zone has their own ciculator. I built a manifold out of 1 1/4 tes's and pipe. Oh, I have installed a taco 504 relay box.

Edward A. (Ed) Carery

Ghost flow

Frank,

Your method of piping the boiler is not the best but working with what you have, described:

If I understand you correctly, you flow through a single flow check, and then split to the three zones. You did not describe if the three zones are individually controlled by zone valves or flow checks at that point.

If there are no zone valves, and there is only one flow check valve before the three zones split, that is your problem.

Each zone needs its own individual flow check or a zone valve to close off the flow of that respective zone, so as to prevent ghost flow when the other zone(s) are calling for heat.

As stated by others, a few (well lit & good quality) photos would be helpful).

Regards,

Ed Carey

Tony G

Hi Ed

Yes, you are correct, I have a single check valve for all three zones. I did not think I need individual check valves for each zone. I also did not want to use zone valves so I decided on each zone having it's own circulator.

Tony G

Thanks Steven

Does it matter where the check valve is? Before or after the ball valve shut off? I'd like to put them after the shut off.

Tony G

Need to Understand

How does a check valve keep the hot water from one zone from passing into another zone? Could someone please explain this to me?

Ron Schroeder_3

Vertical check valves

by their nature are inhibitors to unintentional flow as the device is closed by a weak spring. When the circulator stops pushing into the valve the water flow stops. Swing checks cannot work well vertically and are thus unsuited to the task.

Zoning with pumps as opposed to zone valves is a valid choice. IMO

Tony G

Hi Fred

Well, I guess I still don't understand. If I have a manifold built with 3 circulators pushing water into the boiler and on the outlet of the boiler I have the expansion tank then 3 seperate risers going to three seperate zones how does a check valve determine not to work. The valve is basically in series will all three circulators. Correct?

John White

007IFC

Why wouldn't you use a Taco 007 with integral FloCheck?
Seems like problem solved.
jhw

Tony G

John

One of the circulators is a Taco 007. I forget what the other is, but when I tested the none Taco I got heat half way thru the other zone. The radiators where getting warm.

Ron Schroeder_3

I am sorry I overlooked

that your are pumping toward.

In a pumping away arrangement the circulators and their integrated check valves represent highly flow resistive elements in the home warming system. Spring loaded check valves present similar resistance. Those zones that are intended receive the heated water.

In a pumping toward arrangement the circulator and its check valve live in the cool side of the boiler. The targetted zones also receive their heated water but unintentional heating occurs as the mechanical resistance that a zone valve or disabled circulator presents is not there to slow it down.

Additionally, you might have circulators that are pushing into the boiler strongly enough to overcome the resistance of pump and check valve in unintended circuits.

To qoute a famous author, Pumping away...

Tony G

Fred

If this is the case, then what is the best way to resolve this?

Paul Flansburg

Need Help with this

All,

Am I approaching this in the wrong way? Is there anyone out there that can read what I am trying to do to add these zones? The plumbing is complete, the relays are wired. The issue with the ghost heat is now my problem. Is there anyone out there that can help?

Frank....

Ron Schroeder_3

move the pumps

into the supply.

Paul Flansburg

That would require re-plumbing the whole system. There must be another way? Instead of pushing to the supply would pulling from the supply work?

Unknown

Your problem

was adressed a few times in this post , Frank . With one flowvalve on the supply , any circulator turns on and you'll get heat in all the zones above the boiler . What you need is a separate flowvalve for each zone . You can cut them in the return or the supply . We like to have them on the supply . Or you can buy the Taco IFC series circulators that have built in flochecks .

Ron Schroeder_3

As you said

Sorry, double entry

Paul Flansburg

Ron

Thank you. I understand that I need the check valves. Can they be mounted vertically or hrizontially? I appologize if I have taken up everyone's time, but I thought I understood what I was doing and ran into a small issue.

Ron Schroeder_3

As you said

the problem with ghost flow is now yours. The simplest solution is to do nothing. Live with a little overheating upstairs, save the work of moving the pumps and pressure tank to where they should be.

Or

You could repipe the zone circulators, each with a spring check, to the discharge side of the boiler, reinstall the expansion tank to the point of no pressure change and keep the windows closed. This small though inconvenient change will contribute to good system performance, good expansion tank life, few airlocks, warmth being distributed to the areas where you need it and not to where you are presently overheating, and most importantly the peace of mind that comes from knowing you did what a professional would have from the outset.

An excellent little booklet that will help you understand this and many other heating system questions was written by our moderator. I read Pumping Away by Mr. Dan Holohan about seven years ago. It revolutionized my thinking about warm water heating ad customer comfort. I set aside all of the things I'd learned from the undead, not so wet heads, and have never looked back. My customers thank me. I highly recommend the book. You might be able to find it on this site.

What do you think, shall we get sarted?

Paul Flansburg

Fred

Then why was the original installation performed exactly the way I described with one zone? All I did was to add another zone on the return and piped in the supply with and didn't add the check valve?

Unknown

That depends

If you get regular flowvalves , you need to install them so the weight in the valve stays down . A spring check can be mounted in any position .

Unknown

That depends

If you get regular flowvalves , you need to install them so the weight in the valve stays down . A spring check can be mounted in any position but they're pretty restrictive and I find them to fail prematurely . Any way you can take a digital picture ? You can post it here so we can help you locate the best place for the flowchecks .

Paul Flansburg

Ron

I will try with the picture. I belive I understand where they have to go. Mounting them horizontally will require that I move the ball valve shutoff's. It makes more sense to mount the flow valve before the shut off then after it. So, my flow out of the boiler will be, expansion tank then flow valve then shut off followed by baseboard radiator back to circ's and into boiler.

I appreciate your responses, some people here have told me, as you said, that I need check valves, but did not help with locating them. I am not a plumber or oil burner guy. Just a guy with a family trying to say money doing the work myself in oreder to put food on the table.....Your help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Frank

Tundra

Place the check valve just after the circulator, or better yet buy circulators with a built in check, then you do not have to change any plumbing. If you do not put a flow check in each zone then you get a reverse flow in any zone that is off while any other zone is running.

Glenn Harrison_2

Here's two products that should resolve your problem

If you do not want to replace your pumps with new pumps with check valves built in, you can either install Bell & Gossett's Check-Trol Isolation flanges with built in spring check valve, or their Hydrotrol Flo Control Spring check valves, both of which can be mounted in any position. If you use the Hydrotrol valves, I would put them next to the pumps.

Bell& Gossett Check-Trol Isolation Flow Control Valve

Bell & Gossett Hydroltrol Flow Control Valve

Paul Flansburg

It WORKS!!!

Well, I just finished testing the zones I added and everything works now that I add the flow valves.

Thank you everyone for your inputs to my small issue.

Franky.....