need help pricing jobs

Michal

Hey guys, I need a little help. I work fulltime not as a mechanic, but do plumbing and heating as extra money. I have always been fair in pricing but now find myself really being cheap, can someone email me a list of like common charges? or a way I should be charging, I know i cant charge as much as you all because of obvious reasons, but I think I am really being conservative. I know I should charge wha tI feel my time is worth, but need a little help. Any help would be appreciated

bob young

rates

if you don't have any liab. & work. comp. insurance or a consumer affairs lic. or plumbing lic. [if you are also doing plumbing ] you should do it for free because after your first major mishap you will be getting sued and probably go to jail if you don't have big bucks for large fines and criminal lawyers. if you are not fully qualified it is real easy to cause fires,explosions and loss of life. if you don't charge money it will be much harder for you to be prosecuted.this advise is f.o.c.

Michal

being qualified

well going to a trade and technical high school, and being a engineer, and haveing a plumbing license/registrations i am qualified. just I am a one man shop, but I understand where your coming from and your concerns

Robert O'Connor_7

Licensed??

Whats your Plumbing license number?
Whats your PE License number?
What state are you in?

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Dave Yates (PAH)

Robert

This past Saturday, I spent (invested) 35-minutes in taking a test (on-line) for becoming a nationally certified home inspector. 120 questions and 60-minutes allowed. I scored an 88% without so much as cracking a book. I'm now "certified" to inspect homes.

My point is this: having a license today doesn't mean what it once did.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Robert O'Connor_7

Dave

As you now know, becoming a home inspector is a snap (not trying to steal your thunder) BUT, why not see what's involved in becoming a UCC (Uniform Construction Code) inspector in NJ. You would be my hero if you could pass the ICS exam. If you want, I could forward the guide lines for it. Better yet, Its an open book(s) exam. I'm not a home inspector by the way.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Tom_35

Robert,

Just because a guy may have a degree in engineering doesn't mean he is a PE. I have also dealt with some PE's that made the top 90% of their graduating class possible.

And speaking of tests, there are so many guys that have grandfathered into their licenses, it's pathetic. One of the major players in our market grandfathered for his HVAC license, and has had others that work for him take all the tests that are not required. He never even took the EPA test when it came out.

Tom A

Weezbo

Dave was it a refresher test for ICBO combination Dwelling

structural mechanical electrical plumbing license? i let mine lapse 20 years ago or so...:) then later on two or three of us took the mechanical inspectors test....i let that lapse also ...just tooo buzy working to keep the card up to date...it isnt that big a deal to keep your licenses up to date i should have ..i regret it now. would save me time trying to keep track of the many code changes...say, in a residence,in a boiler room,is a floor drain required for the over flows ?along time ago it was permissable to drain them direct to the outdoors...thoughts ....

Dave Yates (PAH)

bring it on!

I think it would be educational (for me) to see the information. Lord knows, I had a real eye-opener discovering how easy it was to become a Certified National Home Inspector. The greatest benefit, for me, was seeing exactly what the guidelines are and what is actually excluded from testing or certifying by home inspectors. I was pretty shocked by many things that are excluded that, in my opinion, would be a "must" on my list of things to check. I'm going to be working with Arlene Puentes (October Home Inspections) in a joint effort to raise the bar for the home inspection industry.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Dave Yates (PAH)

I hope not!

I sure hope the ICBO test is tougher than the one I took and has relevant questions that actually test for proper information. The test I took had several silly questions that had no real bearing on inspecting homes (in my opinion).

Same thing goes for some of the test questions I've seen for the latest certification rage in the mechanical trades. For instance: of what relevance to HVAC trades is knowing the name for wood strips between roof rafters to which cedar shingles get attached?

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mark Eatherton1

Michal..

The very first thing I'd recommend you do is to go to www.barebonzbiz.com and hook up with Ellen Rohr. She can give you the guidance you'll need to establish your proper selling price. She has two excellent books available at Books and More on the tool bar to the left, and they are KEY in helping a person like yourself to get started on the right foot.

Thank you for recognizing the need for outside help, and not making the fatal mistakes that most people make of pricing your services based on what you feel the "market will bear", or pricing yourself just slightly cheaper than your former boss who probably has no idea what HE's supposed to be charging.


You're doing the right thing.

ME

Boiler Guy

Good advise ME

What amazes me is; out of 8 or 9 answers you are the only one to give a constructive solution.

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him to fish, he can feed his family for life." JMO

Weezbo

a one man shop ,you are going to have to wear many Hats

you get to hold down every corner AND fritz with all the work and its vagarities. what to charge some one ..well , thats like asking someone what colour is white or how warm is hot..this is best attacked from the Jain doctrine of many sidedness rather than Socratic logic. Trying to make it real...Compared to What? is one of my old time favorite songs..its like just about the same basic idea. if you dont understand any of these things it doesnt really matter if you were anygood at it you will stay in business if not you wont..that isnt all bad either as your talents and skills may better be utilized elsewhere...I wouldnt advise not maxing some increase over time, years go by and some older guys stay stuck in what they thought was a reasonable rate...oh oops..time Flies when we are having fun:)

Michal

Thanks Mark, Eaterton, Wheezbo, and Boiler guy.

Well These 3 gentleman too kthe time to respectfully answer my question. A few days ago there was a posting on how to train an apprentice or apprentice motivation and a hand full of you on here would fail that task becuase of how you answered. I asked a fair and legitimate question, doesnt matter who I am a engineer, a contractor, a homeowner. 3 gentleman took the time out to answer me in a professional way. This was not a question based on Licenses, because there are many guys out there that do not deserve licenses and have them, and you know who you are. I am not here to knock anyone, but its amazing how people get offended and go off in a unforsxeen direction while 3 guys hit the nail on the head. Like said earlier. "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach him to fish, he can feed his family for life." Thats what you all should live by, its your trade, its our trade. I came to you as a young person in the trade asking for help, and got sdcolded by a few of you and got taught by 3 of you, makes you wonder why young guys leave the trade.

Robert O'Connor_7

Dave..

Just some out house reading material in case you truly are interested. I was unable to get just the section pertaining to the Plumbing/technical so ALL bases are covered in case you do choose to go that route. My original post only asked the question about licensure and yes it can be a touchy subject. When you devote so much time and effort to gain licensure within NJ, and then pay insurance (not including medical & other fringes) and struggle just to keep the guys busy only to have the food taken out of your mouth by unlicensed, unbonded, uninsured fly by night so called contractors who in many cases don't even get permits for the work they do is quite distressing. I applaud your efforts for seeking certification within the Home Inspection industry and I'm sure you WILL raise the bar as far as making future certification harder to acheive.



http://www.state.nj.us/dca/codes/licensingunit/licensing_info_booklet.pdf


Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Connor_7

Tom..

Getting "Grandfathered" into licensure stopped here in NJ around 1977 (or not to soon after) I for one took and passed ALL my exams and went through (2) apprenticeships. I was a State apprentice for apox 3&1/2 years then I got into the union for which they gave me NO credit for the State program so I had to start at the bottom again. While I was a 2nd year apprentice (Union) I took and passed my Master Plumbers test (which by the way I scored a 98% without taking a prep course (which is the norm now) all the while taking on Mechanics Institute in NYC on alternate nights. I agree that years ago "Grandfathering" was rampant thoughout the industry and I for one never cut the grandfathers (when I found out who they were) any slack. In the trades and a working inspector I tend to be tough but fair in my calls but will throw any suspected HACK under the bus.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Connor_7

So Michal..

I was thinking of moonlighting as an engineer, any advice as to what I should charge?

I'll ask again.
Whats your license number?
Whats your PE's number?
What state are you in?

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Michal

starting to sound like a broken record

I will not post that inormation on here, its irrelevant to my question. I am not here to pick a fight, if you cant be professional in answering a question, then move on

me_10

Everybody run-the heat police are here!!!!!!!!! I like what you had to say about being answered respectfully. People should try to do that more often.

Robert O'Connor_7

Michal..

I do apologize if you though I was trying to pick a fight. I'm not.

My concern(s) do not include anger but mearly a determination having stability. My position is clear, either you are in business legally or not. Anyone who HAS a license worked long and hard to get it and IF you did have one you would be PROUD to display it. I'm just trying to keep the playing field equal.

Robert O'Connor/NJ.....UCC Construction Official/Plumbing HHS License #7416

DanHolohan

Amen.

Steve_35

Here's a link to a labor rate calculator

http://home.twcny.rr.com/sscott1/Labor Rate CalculatorHVAC.xls

It's an Excel 2003 file. The advice to check out www.barebonesbiz.com was great advice.

Jed_2

And Michal's probably not even

from NJ. I wonder how far those Official Licenses extend!!

Jed

tommyoil

Robert

I was having breakfast the other day with a local plumber. He was complaining about the same things you mentioned here. Fly by nights ect. who take money out of his pocket ect.ect. In walks a mutual acquaintance who asks him(the plumber) to sign off on a permit for a boiler/water heater on a two family hes doing the work in. For $250.00 the plumber does it. No questions asked. Granted, the guy doing the work is unlicenced but he is extremely qualified to do the work(at least the heating end) and the plumber knew it so he signed off. Whats the incentive for this guy to get licenced when he can have his plumber friend sign off any time he needs a permit? I know that this is not a unique situation. I know quite a few LICENCED plumbers who have quite a lucrative little side business of selling permits, for sometimes in the neighborhood of thousands of dollars a week. Seems to make a mockery of the system. And, with no reform in sight it looks as though it will be going on for the forseeable future. Whats a plumber to do?

bob young

mechanics institute

mechanics institute located in n.y.c. is the oldest and finest plumbing school in the country. i went there in the early sixties and the instructers were truly giants in the industry and taught pro bono. a wonderful education was offered free to men working in the plumbing profession. i am going back soon to take a one day course mandatory to renew my new york city plumbing license.i was in the school the night of the sixties first blackout. things are coming full circle.

Jim Bennett

I thought...

I thought it was,"Teach a man to fish and he'll sit in a boat drinking beer all day!" :-)

don_52

respect...

has to be earned, you do not know me nor i you, hence
neither of us have the opportunity to earn the respect of the other.

yet there is something called "common courtesy" that is the
norm for social discourse, that seems to get overlooked, yes?

something called being "polite" or "manners", can we ask
each other questions in a "collegial and critical" way,
of course we can.

gee, rocket science, eh?

does this open up the possibility of disagreement and spirited debate, most certainly, that said, i know many folks enjoy a "technical knock down drag out" with it's attendant good natured ribbing and poking.

let's be honest this site IS about commerce, yet it also
to an equal degree about scholarship, learning and clearing timely information as best all can.

enter the interlopers, hijackers and hostage takers, demanding recognition and respect and getting folks
"plugged in" to "their issues",same folks all the time.

they must think others don't notice, very curious?

Weezbo

Jim...That might be true buddy

i can actually fish. i know where they run and what the do and how to sell them and when to fish them buh what good does that do me ? I am in the middle of the land! so being a critical thinker i can share a delightful story of my great great grand father who, drunk out of his mind, crashed his yacht into the reef and off floated the suitcases full of british folding pounds..... may the manes be satisfied.....amen.

tommyoil

Clarify hack

Who qualifies as a hack? There are LOTS of unlicenced contractors who do great work. Does unlicenced=hack in your estimation? Suppose you come upon a job where all the paperwork is in place and is worthy of an approval sticker, but you find out that an unlicenced contractor did the work. Will you automatically fail the job? I know this is a touchy subject. Just about every oil company I know of DO NOT have a licenced plumber,electrician, ect on staff. How do they get boiler permits? Are they all "hacks"? Robert, I have great respect for you and your position as inspector in this great state. However, if what you are saying is that if one is unlicenced they are therefore "hacks" or unqualified I would have to disagree. The people who moonlight to put food on their table are probably cut from the same cloth that the plumbers who sell permits are cut from. Wouldn't you agree? Everybodys gotta eat. With all respect,
Tommy

Michal

Thanks for the spread sheet

Thank you Pitman9 for the spread sheet. It helps me alot and gives me a better idea. Thanks to you and all for helping. Great spreadsheet

Steve_35

We work in upstate NY

> Who qualifies as a hack? There are LOTS of

> unlicenced contractors who do great work. Does

> unlicenced=hack in your estimation? Suppose you

> come upon a job where all the paperwork is in

> place and is worthy of an approval sticker, but

> you find out that an unlicenced contractor did

> the work. Will you automatically fail the job? I

> know this is a touchy subject. Just about every

> oil company I know of DO NOT have a licenced

> plumber,electrician, ect on staff. How do they

> get boiler permits? Are they all "hacks"?

> Robert, I have great respect for you and your

> position as inspector in this great state.

> However, if what you are saying is that if one is

> unlicenced they are therefore "hacks" or

> unqualified I would have to disagree. The people

> who moonlight to put food on their table are

> probably cut from the same cloth that the

> plumbers who sell permits are cut from. Wouldn't

> you agree? Everybodys gotta eat. With all

> respect, Tommy

Ted_9

Michal

The Bearebones biz books are a great way to figure this out. It figures out what your expanses and how to figure your pay and what you need to change.

You dont have to be a plumber for this book, its for anyone, basket weavers as well.
PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Steve_35

Quality of work is definitely

NOT determined by the license(s) held but by the attitude of the person performing the work.

Steve_35

Make sure you're sitting down

the first time you crunch the numbers. If you've never done this it will be a shocker.

Michal

yes it did open my eyes

Yes it did open my eyes, I was amazed, Thanks alot

Robert O'Connor_7

bob young.

The General Society of Mechanics and Tradesmen of the City of New York (a.k.a. Mechanics Institute)for which I owe my livelyhood to is by far the best education (in the trades) I've ever received. Bob, your commitment to your education and the school is A-1!.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Robert O'Connor_7

tommyoil..

I glad to hear your feeling better. It musta been beat being laid up for so long.

As far as the HACK comment. If you are Licensed, Bonded, Insured, and secure permits for your work I have no problem at all, but to answer your question about passing the job if the firm is unlicensed?? well the short answer is It depends. You don't need a license to install heating equipment, you do however have to acually be in that business, meaning having established a bonafied entity. The State of New Jersey relaxed the rules regarding these entities a while ago meaning if your primary business is heating then that company can install heating equipment and run gas lines (new) to the equipment but if its a boiler, it requires a backflow preventer and the only person that can install it is a licensed plumber. Have I failed jobs that didn't adhear to the regulations...Yes. Do I check out oil companies that apply? Yes. If you stamp a permit for anyone just to make money then I belive you are skating the line but as long as your name is on it I now have the ability to find you in the event that the job goes bad. I'll give you an example. I recently approved a permit for a resident of town who (on the application) claimed they were doing the work themselves. I went to make a rough inspection and found several violations (minor in nature at the time) upon returning to the site (was called to make the final inspection) I discovered the violations were never corrected. Now I receive a phone call from the homeowner claiming they were not aware the rough inspection failed. I said "what do you mean?" I made my rough inspection, I spoke to you (the man I met on site introduced himself as the HO) I explained what needed to be corrected and left a red sticker. The property owner was livid for now he had to pay (someone else) to correct the violation and unfortunatly a portion of the new wall had to be removed to gain access. The Architech of the job tried fast tracking the job upon application before establishing who the subs were going to be, wrote the homeowners name on all the permits. The sub contractors were all paid in full and nobody was returning the HO's calls. I now wrote a letter compelling compliance and the HO came clean and said "the architech told me this would save time and $$ so I agreed to it", now, about four days later a water pipe failed on the third floor and caused apox. 30 grand in damage. Tommy if you were me, what would YOU do?? I'll tell you what action I took after you tell me what you think the right thing is to do in this situation.

Robert O'Connor/NJ

tommyoil

Robert, I would have to imagine

That you would have to track down the subs since they were paid in full for an uninspected job. Were they not the responsible person in charge of work? Or did that fall on the HO. I see your point and it is well taken. I suppose, like everything else, it would depend on the circumstances you were faced with at the time as to the decision you make. What was the outcome (and who got hurt). And yes, it was a tiny bit BORING for nearly five months. The last month was productive around the house so at least something got done. I nearly had the summer off too but I missed the cut my two men. Thanks for your reply.
Tommy

Robert O'Connor_7

tommy

Tracking the subs was easy. I'm an inspector not an investigater but we do have some room to work (the homeowner cheesed em right out instead of being made to pay the fine and repair the work). The subs were all caught and fined as was the architech (who took the biggest hit as well as administrative action against him) I usually don't have to resort to such things but the architech and his subs left the property owners high an (NOT DRY BUT WET). The bottom line was bringing about compliance. I cannot protect people from themselves but I can protect the property. What maybe good enough for you (in the general sence), may not be good enough to whom you sell your property to, thats why we have MINIMUN standards. I highlight minimun because thats what they are. Doing the kind of work I usually do means passing inspection standing on your head (easy), its trying to make an owners rep happy or a construction manager or especially an engineer to approve something so we can submit for payment.

Tommy, I'm happy your movin around better, now get to work!

Robert O'Connor/NJ

Mad Dog

I'll bet $100 bucks you ain't licensed my friend...............

And I've never seen an engineer with such bad grammar. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Mad Dog

True.........but it also holds true that

the man who holds the license usually has a lot to lose if his work is shoddy or dangerous. From what I see being in an average of 3-5 homes and businesses a day, the vast majority of hacks are moonlighters and GCs trying their hand at the trade. I miss the old days, when you couldn't buy plumbing supplies unless you worked for a licensed plumber. Kept the trade pretty pure. Mad Dog

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"