Radiant Tube

Al Letellier

If it were my house,I'd opt for QuikTrac or similar product for the radiant. It puts the tubing on top of the sub floor and keeps the temp lower. It will be hard to heat that room with the hi-R value in the darpet and pad, but a little supplemental will help. I'm a WIRSBO guy through and through. It's good stuff, and the support and training is the best in the industry, in my book.

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Nick_16

Radiant

Hi everyone. I know the great debate is on about which radiant tubbing is the best. Also, I know that different tubbings are better suited for different setups. I am desiging a radiant floor for a home. Half of the floor has about a 2 R value and the other half has thick carpet and pad with almost a 4 R value. Which tube would be the best for me. Of course with the high R value I need a lot of heat and I can use as high of water temp. as needed. Heat loss calc. says 16-18 BTU per square foot in the problem areas with thick carpet. That isn't too much to ask is it? Of course, the carpet areas will be zoned together and the Pergo floor will be zoned together. I want to but tubbing in joist staple up with plates. Will it help to but in A LOT of tubbing and A LOT of plates? Joists are 14" on center. Also, I have a fully furnished, heated basement with suspended tile ceiling. Do I really need insulation in the joists spaces? I know there are a lot of experts out there who have done a lot of work with radiant. I would love to hear everyone comments. I have done some hydronics over the years but the radiant thing is new to me. Just know the basics. Any questions just ask.

Nick_16

Must be in Joists

I have to staple up the tube with plates because I can't tear up the floor coverings.

Ted_9

My input

Well, you must make sure it will work using a heat loss and radiant design/heatloss. The carpet are sounds pretty tough and supplemental may be needed. Maybe base board or panel rads would be better for the carpet are. And the floor bays should be insulated, min. R19. I too would use Quick trc/Climate panels but if you have to go under, using the rigid plates with pex is best.

PATRIOT HEATING & COOLING, INC.

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Nick Dearing

Thanks for your input

I am still somewhat new to radiant but I'm not so happy with it from the sounds so far. You always here it avertised as working under almost any flooring. I didn't think that 16-18 BTU/hr./sq. ft. was too much to ask. At least with baseboard you don't have to worry about your floor covering.

Ken_8

If price is no object...

copper tube with plates is the "ultimate" in output per S.F., lowest possible design temperature and fastest response time of any/all staple up systems ever contemplated.



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Unknown

plates

IMHO - The only plates to use are the Radiant Engineering C-Fin. Thicker then all others giving the best heat transfer, holds the tube from moving WITHOUT silicone adhesive.

As far as tube, to coin a phrase from DVW - Tube is tube. Just make sure it has an Oxygen barrier.

Unknown

you're looking at about a 150 deg water temperature with an R4 covering at 16 BTUs/sq ft or so, using HEAVY aluminum plates like thinfin C, joist trak, or maybe a bit lower than that with Thermofin C, assuming you insulate the joist cavity well.

Better hope your heat loss is accurate though, because if you have to go much hotter than that, I believe you'll be looking at possible problems with the subfloor. I'm not a plywood expert, but I've heard mention of delamination issues at hotter water temps.

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hr

I'm not a big fan

of floor radiant and carpet. Especially R 4 worth of build up! Are radiant ceilings or walls an option? Maybe panel radiators? Sometimes the response time of the radiatotrs or panels could be a big plus for reset or night time setback ability, etc.

Watch the temperature on the carpet pad and carpet itself. Getting it too warm may present off gassing or early failure of the product or bonding agents. Look for a radiant specfic pad if you choose the radiant floor method.

Yes, you want to be sure of the design calcs. Think 150 would be the highest I would even consider for that application. Better error on the safe side

hot rod

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Nick_16

Not for long

The carpet is only for a couple more years and then the whole house is going to be Pergo. Don't want to put in the Pergo before though because it is cold in the winter without radiant heat and also the carpet could go about two more years and then it is done anyway. The whole reason I want to go with radiant is because it is supposted to be so comfortable and you don't have to have baseboard or radiators.

Tim Doran

For Mark Hunt

Saw your run in with Dale the other day, take comfort in the fact that in the big picture the difference in thickness from one type of extruded plate to another seems to make almost no difference in output. I modeled the Wirsbo Joist Trak against the ThermoFin and came up with a .07btu/sqft/h/f difference. See the attached pictures. The outputs are in W/M2 so devide by 10.76 and then multiply by 3.413 to get btu/sqft.

Tim D.

Unknown

I assume you mean .07/btu/sqft/h/f difference for equal contact area between aluminum and subfloor? Since thermofin has 25% more contact area than joist trak (5" wide vs 4" wide) I assume its output is a little more powerful...

Tim Doran

Good Catch Rob

I neglected to adjust the width when I ran the calc. The output is actually .5btu/sqft/h more with T-fin. This is total output. Another note, these are both modeled at 120f water temp. New picture attached.

Tim D.

hr

Question, Tim

did you ever model the real thin flashing gauge transfer plates? I'd be curious to see the numbers on that compared to extruded plates of the various gauges.

Also the thickness is not just for output increases but the ability of a thicker metal to transfer the heat to the edges, of the transfer plate, better. Thus offering a better temperature spread to the floor surface it contacts. Kind of like the difference between a thin copper fry pan and a thick cast iron pan. Both have unique transfer properties.

hot rod

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BC

Plate thickness FEAs

This is fantastic info. I've been trying to decide on the best plates to use with my radiant ceiling installation - I want to keep fluid temps as low as possible since I plan to run a geothermal heat pump, so tempertaure has a dramatic effect on efficiency.

I've been doing FEAs with Cosmosworks and I've also found that any plate, even a very thin one is dramatically better than no plate at all. The results I got are below. I used 3/8" pex-al-pex, 6" spacing (overkill, I know), with 5/8 drywall on top of the plate. I used a 95F fluid temp, and a 70F air temp.


3/8 tubing w no ht plate, 5/8 drywall - 10.08

3/8 tubing w/.005" ht plate, 5/8 drywall - 21.42

3/8 tubing w/.010" ht plate, 5/8 drywall - 23.76

3/8 tubing w/.020" ht plate, 5/8 drywall - 25.56

3/8 tubing w/1mm ht plate, 5/8 drywall - 26.82


These all assume perfect contact between the plate and the tube(about 50% of the circumfrence) and bewteen the plate and the floor. I'm sure that in a real world situation these outputs wouldn't actually be achieved. I should add that although I am experienced in structural and fluid FEAs, I haven't done thermal analysis before, so I could be way off base here.

This would suggest that even a very thin plate (.005" is almost like alumninum foil!) gives a significant benefit. Of course, thicker plates have other benefits such as gripping the tube better, less potential for noise, etc.

One problem I am having is determing the actual thickness of the various brands. From what I have gathered, Thermofin is by far the thickest (1/32"?), and most "thin" varieties seem to be in the .015" to .020" range. Does anyone have info they can add to this? I think on the RPA boards I saw that the coating on thermalboard was quite thin (.003-.005?) but their stated outputs are quite high. This seems believable based on this analysis.

Unknown

Except, it's not, really. I'm not sure what is going on, but there are plenty of installed jobs out there with lightweight plates and extruded plates and the temperature drop in SWT when going from lightweight to extrusions is quite formidable. That is observed fact which is also borne up in Wirsbo's output charts, which (in an underfloor application) show approximately a 50% jump in output making the switch, while keeping the same water temps and floor R resistance.

I'm also kind of stunned at Tim's assertion that a 25% increase in contact area only yields (approximately) a 2 or 3% increase in output between extrusions. Now I can't pretend to be in Tim's league as far as the sophistication of my thermodynamic knowledge, and I have the utmost respect for him and his contributions to our industry, but that runs counter to anything I would consider reasonable without further explanation. Perhaps it's my ignorance speaking there, but that just seems... unlikely.

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Nick_16

Blueridge

I don't know if anyone has heard of BlueRidge Company before or not but I would like to get my supplies from there. They sound like a very nice company to deal with. The heat transfer plates that they carry are RHT brand. They are 5" wide by 24" long. Are these a good brand? They cost about $1.33 each. This is what they have to say about them:

Heat Transfer Plates are aluminum fins designed to facilitate heat transfer from the radiant tubing to the flooring material and the space. Heat Transfer Plates accept 3/8 nom. or 1/2 nom. (1/2 or 5/8 o.d.) PEX tubing (or copper tubing) in a secure snap fit that insures superior heat exchange between the tubing and the highly conductive aluminum fin. Heat Transfer Plates can conduct heat out of the water stream in the tube and spread it laterally over the large surface area of the fin. When compared with a bare tube, the Heat Transfer Plates can increase heat transfer to the space by over 300% in some floor designs. This increased lateral heat transfer allows the radiant floor to pass sufficient heat into the space at lower water temperatures. The lower water temperatures enhance comfort, increase system efficiency, promotes system reliability, and provides the heat delivery needed under extremely cold weather conditions.

HEAT TRANSFER PLATES offer an efficient method to distribute radiant heat from sources like PEX tubing. They are available in single (5") and double widths (12.5") and are 24" in length. These plates fit PEX tubes in 3/8" and 1/2" and are available in mill finish aluminum in gages .019" (sgl) and .024" (dbl).

BC

theory vs. reality?

Maybe for underfloor applcations the thick plates come into thier own. The close spacing I used might also have something to do with it. Monday I'll try running a case with a higher R-value above the tubing and a wider tubing spacing. As the temperature difference between the fluid and the surface increases, the thicker plates might be much more effective. I'd certainly trust your experience and Wirsbo's analysis over my first foray into thermal analysis!

Unknown

I haven't had cause to deal with them in several years, but they used to be a decent company at least. I was working for one of their suppliers though, so I can't say that I know what it's like to work with them on the other end.

I'm bet that's a decent quality lightweight plate though. There isn't a huge difference between lightweights, really, as long as they have an "omega" groove.

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Unknown

it could be.

Frankly, at 12" o.c., you could probably heat most rooms in your house at 105 degree water temperature. In ceilings, I don't see value in increasing your material costs by 50% or more to drop your water temps 10 or 15 degrees at that point. And, if you are investing in your envelope like you are investing in your heat source, that 105 degree figure is probably high.

But let's see what Tim has to say. I'm still kind of stunned at his earlier post.

Even more fun.. where's dale? hehehehe.... it's gonna be fun here tomorrow!!!

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hr

The critical compromise with too thin

of a plate or extrusion. The ability to tightly grip and hold the tube. This is where you have to be careful "dumbing down" transfer plates.

Plenty of us here have had experience with tube falling out of the thin extruded plates. May have been a manufacturing tolerance issue on the extrusion. Worn dies that the aluminum was squirted through, perhaps. May be it was tube tolerance (od) issue. Maybe be a combo of both. But it did in fact occur in more than one installation.

Requiring silicone to hold the tube in a "loose" transfer plate is pure BS in my opinion. If the plate cannot hold tightly throughtout the expansion and contraction of the tube it WILL be a noise generator in addition to a weak transfer plate. Un happy customers are a result, often, regardless of the floor comfort. Hard to know if, or where, the tube has fallen from the plate after sheetrock goes up

Pex with external O2 protection such as EVOH really needs to be watched also. This barrier method, in a loose plate fit, will really be a squeaker.

Radiant Engineering has a ThinFin in addition the the original ThermoFin. My experience shows it is on a very thin "acceptability" edge! They designed carefully to keep the "meat" at the tube grip connection point.

Ocassionally tube slips out of the manufactures extruders a bit out of tolerance. Plates with loose fit, or weak grip will really be a problem with this tube.

Think about it.. is it worth a few hundred bucks to go with questionable plates and risk a "non fixable" noise problem for the homeowner.

You decide. Do it once, do it right.

hot rod

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Tim Doran

Intuitive

It's intuitive that more plate equals more output for sure and to some extent it does. In our minds it seems reasonable that 25% more plate should yield 25% more output but it is sort of the same as tube spacing at 8"oc and 4"oc. 4" spacing does not yield twice as much output. You can only move just so much energy through the tube contact area of a plate, which in my opinion is the limiting factor.


Aluminium has a specific heat of .214 btu/lb/f. Just for an example lets assume a 1 pound block and we wish the raise it's temperature 10 degrees. The btu's required are 2.14. Now lets assume a 1.25 pound block with the same ranges. The btu's required are 2.1935 for a net difference of .0535 btu or just over 2%. If you can only put 2% more in you can only get 2% more out.

Tim D.

Tim Doran

RTI issue

The issue with the tube falling out of the plates was an RTI issue and was resolved. It was a tooling issue that was resolved before Wirsbo took on the product. Since we have offered Joist Trak there have been no reports of the tube falling out or any noise issues. In my opinion the extrusion tolerances are more important than the thickness of the extrusion when it comes to tube grip and/or fit, at least within a reasonable ramge.

We do not require silicone or anything else to hold the tube in our Joist Trak. As far as the EVOH goes, all barrier pex has some sort of EVOH coating. Wirsbo applies a skin on top of the EVOH to protect the barrier and to help eliminate the noise issues that may occur with an uncoated barrier.

If you have specific applications that have been a problem and that have caused you to think that our plates are questionable I would like to know about them. Please give me a call with the details.

Tim D.

Tony_8

Joist Trak

I had to pop the PEX in with a rubber mallet.

Tight enough for me

Dale Pickard

Plate design

Hot Rod is right on as usual. There is definitely more to the design of a heat transfer plate than the thickness, and the thickness relates to more than just heat transfer, especially economics, as the thicker plate is obviously more expensive.

Our original plate the ThermoFin was designed to make best use of the properties available from a heat treated extrusion. Those include mechanical properties likel rigidity, flatness, lack of twist etc. These properties have a great deal to do with the utility of the heat transfer plate and they all increase with thickness or gauge, along with heat transfer.

The most important feature of the extrusion process to heat transfer plate is the ability to precisely form exact and rigid shapes that let us form an optimally shaped heat transfer channel that will accept tubing but is unyielding other wise. The ability of the rigid extrusion to tightly grip the tubing and eliminate air spaces and the need for sealants is a major feature of the method. This all increases heat transfer which help eliminate temperature differentials between materials. The tubing and the extrusion expand at near equal rates and don't expand differentially.

It is VERY important that the limited contact area available at the Tube / Plate interface be used as completely as possible. ANY loss of contact between the tube and the plate at this juncture obviates a lot of investment in aluminum.
In the photos that I am posting, one can see where the Brand X product represents a curious design that makes very poor use of th available contact area at the tube / plate interface.

The manufacturers of this product claim that the discontinuous segmented surfaces, the air space and the specially designed "fit" actually serve to increase heat transfer! Apparently they are privy to special magic rules of heat transfer.

What do the Wallies think?

The reader has to know how much it cracks me up to hear these folks tout themselves as heat transfer authorities.

We did our first fea studies of our extruded heat transfer plates in 1993 using CosmosM.

Dale

Nick_16

It really should

come out to: using more plates, you increase heat output.

Dale Pickard

Come on Tim?

Why not just tell the truth? It must be hard to have to spin such moldy baloney. Do you write this stuff or do they give you a script?

Those good folks in South Carolina produced just the shape that they were asked to produce. Why not just take some responsibility?

Dale

Dale Pickard

Right On Hot Rod

"The ability to tightly grip and hold the tube."

A couple of corrections. A worn extrusion die will produce thicker shapes, not thinner ones. The problems that others have had with our competitors plates are purely a matter of poor and uninformed design. Standard aluminum association tolerances will produce a plate with the reliability of fit that have been demonstrated by our ThermoFin products over the last decade. The design has to be careful and nuances count.

We have found issues with tubing tolerances, especially with respect to roundness. Hard round tubes are best. We are fond of PEX C and PAP and copper.

You are correct in your assessment of the ThinFin. It's as thin as you want to get in an extuded plate and still retain the benefits of the tempered extrusion. I have paid some special attention to the snap slot in the ThinFin to increase rigidity of the channel. It's amazing how small changes can have large effects. I should add that we are pleased with the performance of the thinner plate.

The original ThermoFin product was to designed to work and work well, all of the time. Our ThinFin product is designed to optimize the extruded heat transfer plate concept with respect to cost. Because of our attention to detail and comprehension of the heat transfer issues, our plates will provide the best performance relative to our competitors, a confused design at best, steeped in cynicism and ill will.

Dale

Weezbo

What do i know ...? i like the thick plates that hold the tubing

in place and conduct BTU'sto the surface of thier choise...i like them in the wall i like them in the ceiling ilike them under the floor and i even put a few in the gypcrete and well...i dont have any problem with them, the old style that were made by my predessors out of aluminum sheets they got from the Fairbanks Daily News miner when the printing process used beacoup of these plates to print a news paper werent absolutely Great however they definitely seemed to work *~/:)....

bob_44

Linear Expansion

The linear expansion of pex is 16.5 times aluminum. bob

hr

bob

yet another good reason to use PAP in transfer plates

hot rod

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hr

Tony, tight fit?

try this. Pound the tube in with a rubber mallet. Then remove the tube and try it again! I've found that the thinner gauge plates expand when the tube is pounded in. Without sufficient material and temper the fit is "loosened" forever. The same happens when the tube heats and thje od increases. If the plate has not been carefully designed to allow for this movement, then....

This is where the attention to detail is so critical. That tube to plate, and channel to plate design is critical to the tube hold, and related transfer and noise issues.

Not to ignore the tube dimension spec. Put an oval shaped tube, from tube coiling, in a transfer plate, at the narrow dimension and you have a real problem.

Gosh, and it all sounds so simple. Wrap a plastic, poor conductor, in a great conductor (aluminum) and increase heat transfer. Easier said than done

hot rod

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Tony_8

just my experience

I don't have the resources you seem to have. My joist trak didn't lose it's grip running at max design temp, on/off, for 2 weeks before the insulator came and did his thing. I now have it on reset with the max set 10F lower than design SWT and it hasn't lost a thing that I can tell. And it's been quiet as a mouse throughout the house.

I'm not saying they're equal, I have no first hand comparison knowledge. I have learned not to split hairs too finely It still kicks suspended tube in the @#&amp;.

Mark Eatherton1

So...

its a jillion times more than concrete, but it doesn't keep crazy people like us from putting it in cement...:-)

When constrained lateraly, it has no choice but to shrink nominally (ID).

Good to see you bob. Doc sez Hey.

ME

hr

It takes a good mix

of design, research, modeling, intent, but VERY important, field experience to make a fair comparison of various brands. At least that is how I see it.

Unless an installer knows what to look for, and follows up to see how a system performs and holds up over time, it all just hearsay and parroting of info

I applaud any, and all, manufactures that do take the time and energy to "look into" the product both from the "puter screen and the job site and conditions.

I suspect Tim, and the Wirsbo team, has more budget and resources to look deeper into the transfer plate design, issues, and potential problems, and I am glad they are.

I'm happy to share, with anyone, my studies and observations from "real life" experiences. Although I can't suffix my name with any "degreed abbreviations"

I think installers are in the best position to ask the questions. The top of the heap manufactures will embrace, welcome, and use data from the field observations, IMO

There will be a point in time where the marketing department gets their crack at the product. This, too, is fair and necessary. They would not be in business long if they did not market and sell the product. The contracor needs the ability to look at the plethora of products and chose and recomend to their customer which works best for the unique application that every project presents. That's all

hot rod

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ALH_3

Specific Heat

I think you're confusing heat capacity with thermal conductivity. We're not just trying to heat up the plates. 6061-T6 for example has a thermal conductivity of 1160 btu-in/hr-ft^2-F. So if you increase the contact area by 25% you theoretically have increased the btu's the aluminum is capable of transferring by 25%. It's in the units.

When you dissect the units of thermal conductivity you are left with btu/hr, which is a fixed requirement, multiplied by in/ft^2-F. So to increase the thermal conductivity one must either increase the temperature difference, increase the contact area, or make the floor thinner. The floor thickness is essentially fixed at a minimum of 1.5in. We want to keep the fluid temperatures as low as possible, so that is essentially a fixed quantity. All that leaves is contact area.

25% more aluminum doesn't necessarily correspond to 25% more output from the floor. There is lateral heat transfer in the wood and tile. One reaches a point of diminishing returns with regards to spacing. The floor temperature can only be just so even before the cost outweighs the benefits.

Coupled with this is the sheer output at a certain spacing of different methods making all the same assumptions. Conduction is everything when attempting to deliver heat where you want it, when you want it there. I have yet to see a plate that optimizes plate to tube contact area, floor to plate contact area, installation flexibility, ease of installation, structural rigidity, and economical installation as well as Thermofin and Thinfin.

The loose tube fit of Joist Track throws all that assumed "perfect" contact between the tube and plate out the window.

Again, all kinds of things work just fine. Every product has its compromises. Those compromises have different reasons depending on the product.

-Andrew

Dale Pickard

Yes,

but they both expand faster than the surrounding materials.

Also, the plastic only puts up so much force when it "wants" to expand. What it wants and what it gets can be two different things. Pex tubing does not expand differentially with concrete because the concrete will not allow it. The plastic tubing holds internal stresses that aren't expressed in movement. The same thing holds for the attachment of the plates to the substrate. Attaching the plates securely to the substrate prevents them from moving.

Tricker with the heat transfer plates than with concrete, to be sure, but for the most part, with most tubing under reasonable operating temperaturs and conditions, the ThermoFin can grip the tube well enough to prevent the tube from expanding faster than the aluminum. The substrate can grip the plate well enough that the plate doesn't expand faster than the substrate.

Of course all of this gripping and contact encourages great heat transfer. A large part of the reason that we don't have expansion issues with concrete is that the heat transfer is so good that we don' have temperature differentials. The same is true for heat transfer plates.

Think of the floor delivery system as a clutch. As the heat transfer increases, the ability to really engage the load in the room increases. Engaging that load brings the operating temps down even while a lot of heat is being delivered.
So the tendency is for these systems to be very adequate with respect to expansion issues because they don't have to see large temperature differentials. This is especially true if they are controlled well.

Of course the place that it is most important for the contact and heat transfer be optimized is at the tube / plate interface. If you want to prevent differential expansion between the tube and the plate, this is where you want to be locked in. ANY waste of contact area or introducion of air spaces dramatically affects the performance of the heat transfer plate system as a whole. Installers of the Brand X system would do well to silicone seal the tube in the plate. It makes quite a difference in how that plate performs.
Silicone in the ThermoFin however, hurts it's performance as it puts material between the tube and the plate. If you put any in, make sure the tube seats and most of it squishes out.
You can see in the photos of the Brand X product and the Omega plate, that they really have no hope of controlling the force that the plastic puts up when it goes to expand. The lack of good heat transfer at the tube / plate interface introduces thermal distortions into the plate, especially the omega plate. In other words, the plate runs hotter at the center than at the edges. It's expanding in the center and contracting on the edges. The thin omega plate experiences higher such differentials than the extruded plate. It's too wide for it's thickness and the fit is very poor. These effects are less true for the extrusions because of their heft, but poor heat transfer in the center can cause the edge to ripple, ever so slightly.

Dale

Tim Doran

??????

First off DON"T EVER suggest that I am liar or that I would distort the facts. You flatter yourself by thinking that your products are worth compromising my integrity for or that I would compromise myself for one of our products that was not what we claim it to be. I know that there are issues between you and my employer but I was not part of that process and do not have the facts so I will not comment further. Don't ever suggest that I am anyones puppet and that someone could simply provide me with a script. A paycheck is one thing, my word and integrity are another and they are not for sale.

Tim D.

leo g_13

Sound like

the same plates that Ipex and a couple of German mans. distribute. They seem to work very well. Case in point; i have a project on the go right now, where the HO is living in a totally torn apart reno. We have just his 2 bedrooms and bath on the main floor plated. No insulation, the new part of the house is open, but he does have some poly "closing" the old part off from the new. We have this bit, about 400 SqFt, being heated by his electric HWT. He controls the heating with a remote on/off switch. He told me recently that he turns the heat on about 2 hours in the morning, and 2-3 hours in the evening, the bedrooms have carpet, the bath lino, and he says that it is no problem bringing this part of his home up to temp. The coldest it has been since this "went into service" has been about 2*C.

So yeah, I would say that that style of plate works very well!

Leo G

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leo g_13

I strill haven't

seen these "external" holding style of plates in my area. All the ones I have seen around here, you first put the tube up, then snap the plate to it, then staple/sandwich the tube and plate combo to the floor. I can see where the "external plate would provide a bit more contact of plate to floor, but this "internal" method, allows a direct contact between the warmest component, the tube, and the floor.

Leo G

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Unknown

It doesn't, however, transfer nearly as much heat.

I know what you're saying, but actual performance of the extruded plates beats the pants off of the lightweights, hands down, no arguements, no discussion. it's a good 30 degree temperature drop or more in some cases.

Lightweights are fine in many cases of course, but there just isn't even a case to be made that they are in the same league as extrusions.

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