Homeowner w/radiant questions - who's right?

Unknown

If they cannot provide calculations that back up their point of view, then they are not competant designers. Walk away, or at least insist on seeing the numbers. The first step in any radiant design is a room-by-room heat load calculation. This should tell you the expected surface temperatures, water temperatures required, and whether or not any particular method will heat the home.

If by "open system" you mean a system that combines radiant and DHW usage, and does not seperate the two systems with a coil in a tank (indirect water heater), a coil for DHW in the boiler itself, or with an external heat exchanger, then you are talking to a REAL hack and you DEFINITELY need to eliminate that person from your list of contractors. That is bad for you, and your system. For this kind of investment, don't skimp on the few hundred dollars for heat exchange that will protect it and you.

If you are looking for good contractors, try the "find a contractor" feature here, and also at www.radiantpanelassociation.org. If you can, try to find one that is RPA certified (not just a member, but certified).

Charlie_11

Homeowner w/radiant ????. Who's right?

I need radiant heat. BUT – what are the facts? Why do these radiant sellers/contractors always contradict each other? So, what are the facts?

1. How many BTU’s does a “staple-up” produce?
2. Living in a cold mountain area at 7000 feet, can a “staple-up heat my home?
3. Can an “open system” keep me warm and not cook my hardwoods?
4. Can an “on-demand” water heater work in with staple up and in this climate?

Facts from me:
1. One story brick home.1900 sqft built in 1975
2. R-11 in 2x4 wall with brick on outside
3. R-40 in attic
4. Dual pane windows

Constantin

Hello there...

... and welcome to the Wall. We've discussed that topic before and the usual answer is "it depends".

The amount of BTU's that staple up can push upwards is quite dependent on the water temperatures you can use, what floor temperatures you can stand, and how well you insulate below, the tube spacing, among other things.

I have heard that heat losses below 15BTU/(ft² x hr) can be covered by staple-up w/o plates but if you search for postings from luminaries like hot rod or post the same question on the RPA website, I suppose you can get a more definitive answer. Be prepared to detail the floor construction, insulation schedule, etc.

Whether or not a staple-up system can heat your home depends entirely on your heat loss. Have you performed a heat loss calculation or do you have actual consumption data? Ideally, you'd know how many BTU/(ft² x hr) does your "worst" room loses on a design day. You may need to supplement the radiant with a panel radiator or two, but that's not the end of the world.

I would stay away from open-loop systems because my aversion to the potential bacterial threats emanating from them. I think most professionals would agree that open loop systems are unsafe (see David Yates' excellent analysis on the subject). BTW, open or closed-loop has nothing to do with the cooking of floors, you can achieve that "goal" with either system.

I would use a dedicated boiler to heat your system not only for energy efficiency but also for safety. Few on-demand heaters are rated for space heating and I wouldn't trust an entire house to one. Cost effective and efficient solutions like the NTI Trinity, HTP Munchkin, or WM Ultra exist, so why take the chance?

I think the most important step you can take at this point is to find a fully-qualified contractor that will do a heat loss calculation on your home and then explore your options with you from there. Don't skimp and believe the hype that some web-sites try to sell you via the DIY route. Check out the "Find a Professional" service here and or contact the RPA to see if there is a licensed pro in your area.

At the end of the day, your satisfaction with the system will depend almost entirely on the quality of the installer. Get a pro to do the job right the first time. BTW, I'm a mere homeowner myself, so I have no financial stake in this.

If your local installer has little to no clue how to design such systems, I would avail myself to the services of NRTRadiant or the Hydronicpros. Either service will determine your design-day heat losses, design a system with all the needed components, layouts, etc. which your installer then simply has to install as shown.

Charlie_11

Do your homework - is what you're saying

I’m going to be getting a heat loss calculation in a couple days. That will get me going. And thanks for your reply. I’ll look up all those leads.

Rodney Summers

Connie's got the longest answers

> I’m going to be getting a heat loss calculation

> in a couple days. That will get me going. And

> thanks for your reply. I’ll look up all those

> leads.



Connie's saying, but here's the correct answer, and you will not regret buying it!

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Rodney Summers

Please forgive

the long answers. Yes Charlie, the homework is already done

Here's the short, and correct assignment:

http://www.heatinghelp.com/shopcart/product.cfm?category=2-2

To Learn More About This Professional, Click Here to Visit Their Ad in "Find A Professional"

Brian (Tankless)

Excellent answer

The homework is already done, now do yours. It'll only take a couple of nights of repelling your lady's advances, while you read it a coupla times in bed. BTW, it won't put you to sleep (shameless plug).

BW.

Unknown

turning off my autoreply for vacation... can't do it without posting, apparently. ta ta for now

Maine doug

You need

to buy the books from here and study. I did and with the help from many on the Wall have a radiant floor and panel rads and went from 2600 gallons for Dec to May down to on average 1400 gallons per year. Includes indirect domestic hot water, a studio open all year and heating 2 floors in place of one with the former steam system.
Am I finished with it- no. Am I happy with it- yup.

But you need to study the books or find someone that has used the same books. I also bought the software to do the heat calcs while on the plane commuting to Philly.

[Deleted User]

The right answer is...

It depends!

What did you expect?

If you ask me, I'll tell you that we don't do any "staple up" systems, and we also won't do any "water heater" heat sources. Why? Because we have YOUR best interests in mind. With close to a million square feet of happy customers, we have the experience to back up our claims. We also have the "orphaned" systems that we inherited that have things like water heaters and staple up in them. Someone has to make these people happy!

Can the system be done with staple up? Sure, so long as the math works out. But along with staple up's alleged cheapness, you'll get noticeable striping, noise, an endless supply of never ever cold water, trap seals that evaporate like there's a hole in them, and you become a major non voting, non compensated member of the utility company of your choice (gas, LP, oil, electricity, whatever..)

Trust me, we lose our fair share of jobs to the staple up crowd. We lose even more jobs to contractors who have no idea what their cost of doing business is, and continually underprice themselves because they don't know how, or don't have the time to perform an accurate and proper bid. So they do what they've always done, "Ball park guestimates". They're out there bidding the jobs for my direct costs for labor and material alone!. Why should I, or even THEY work for the consumner for free? Is it illegal to make a profit?

The consumer accepts their ball park guestimate as gospel, not knowing for sure what it is that they'll be getting. Their proposal looks like the worlds longest run on sentence. "We propose to blah blah bblah blah blah blah blah blah for the sum of $5.00 per square foot."

The job progresses, the contractor realizes they're in trouble moneywise, and starts looking for ways to cut corners. The consumer ends up with heated floors, too hot in most cases because the contractor cut his budget in order to try and make SOME money on the job, but you got what you paid for. Heated floors.

Are heated floors the guaranteed road to true "comfort"? No, they are NOT a guaranteed pathway to comfort. Heat is but one component to comfort, and the unknowing, inexperienced contractor, and staple up is all they know how to do. It will deliver "heat".

In order to make the system work within your "budget", they resort to using things like water heaters, instead of an efficient heat source to save you money, deliver guaranteed "comfort" and longevity, and have enough money in reserve to make sure they stay in business for the long run...

Don't just take what the first contractor says for the truth. Research your own systems and YOU make the decision about what's to be installed, and I'd bet it won't be "staple up" radiant from below the floor with a water heater for a driving force.

You're about to make the most expensive individual purchases you'll ever make. Make sure its done right, the FIRST time. Make sure you can live with the system AND the installing contractor for the life of the system. It is after all, a marriage of sorts...

Check out numerous contractors, look at their work talk to their previous customers. Ask tough questions like "Have you had ANY problems with the system, and if so, how did the contractor handle it?"

Some consumers make the decision to go with the cheapest bid, not knowing for sure what true comfort is really all about. They end up "living with it", because they are too proud and emberrassed to admit their mistake. But what they hey, they got warm floors:-)

We have a saying in this biz, "it's not so much a matter of getting what you paid for, as it is not getting what you didn't pay for, and not getting what you thought you were going to get (comfort). Now, in order to get what you want (comfort), you're going to have to spend a LOT more money...

What's my definition of comfort? "Not being aware of your surroundings. You're neither hot, nor cold, and you don't hear the comfort system. You're simply comfortable"

Just another "elitist hydronician"'s opinion :-)

(Edited)

ME